Episode 53: Colleges in New York State–Part III

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Recently, we have brought our virtual tour back home—here to New York State. We have looked at public four-year colleges and at nationally known private universities.

Virtual tour of private colleges in New York State on NYCollegeChat podcast Episode 53

This week, we are going to continue our examination of private options in New York. Let us say again, that the private institutions we will be discussing in this episode will be only a sample of the more than 100 private colleges and universities in New York. So, you out-of-staters, here is your chance to move outside your geographic comfort zone and to take a look at the many options New York offers. Today, we will check out some relatively small liberal arts institutions and then some higher education institutions with a special academic focus.

As we are now saying for a final time as we bring our virtual tour to a close, no college has asked us or paid us anything to include it. These are our own choices.

1. Liberal Arts Institutions

Let’s shine our spotlight on seven smallish liberal arts institutions, four upstate and three downstate, but north of New York City. Let’s start upstate, with Colgate University in Hamilton, Hamilton College in Clinton, and Skidmore College in Saratoga Springs. These upstate small towns are lovely—especially beautiful in the fall and before the snow comes. In many ways, they are perfect college locations—especially great for students who want that gracious and idyllic ivy-covered campus with handsome buildings in a safe and slightly isolated environment. Saratoga Springs, just north of Albany, is a particularly appealing town. You might know it as home to the famous racetrack and summer home to the New York City Ballet and Philadelphia Orchestra and, way back, to lots of wealthy New Yorkers. Our fourth upstate choice is Union College in Schenectady, which gives students an attractive campus, but in more of an urban setting.

Let’s begin with Colgate University—not a liberal arts “college,” but rather a small liberal arts university, which was founded in 1819 and today enrolls almost 2,900 undergraduates only. Both the students, who are drawn internationally, and the faculty members are about 25 percent multicultural. As befits a small liberal arts institution, Colgate has an enviable 9:1 student-to-faculty ratio.

Colgate’s undergraduates study in 54 majors, which come from a strong and broad liberal arts Core Curriculum. Students are required to take four courses in their first two years: Legacies of the Ancient World, Challenges of Modernity, Communities and Identities, and Scientific Perspectives on the World. Students are also required to take one course with a Global Engagements designation and six more courses from three liberal arts and sciences areas. Colgate offers more than 180 student organizations and 25 varsity sports teams.

Admitted students this fall had an average high school GPA of 3.8 and a combined SAT critical reading and math score of 1405. About 85 percent ranked in the top tenth of their high school graduating class. Interestingly, about 55 percent came from public high schools, while about 45 percent came from private high schools. Tuition and fees at Colgate run about $50,000 per year—quite high, to be sure, but like many other private institutions we have seen.

Hamilton College has a fascinating origin, and you all know that I love college histories. So here it is:

Hamilton College had its beginnings in a plan of education drawn up by Samuel Kirkland, missionary to the Oneida Indians. The heart of the plan was a school for the children of the Oneidas and of the white settlers, who were then streaming into central New York from New England in search of new lands and opportunities in the wake of the American Revolution.

In 1793 the missionary presented his proposal to President George Washington in Philadelphia, who “expressed approbation,” and to Secretary of the Treasury Alexander Hamilton, who consented to be a trustee of the new school, to which he also lent his name. The Hamilton-Oneida Academy was chartered soon thereafter. On July 1, 1794, in colorful ceremonies attended by a delegation of Oneida Indians, the cornerstone was laid by Baron von Steuben, inspector general of the Continental Army and “drillmaster” of Washington’s troops during the War for Independence.

The academy remained in existence for nearly 20 years. It faltered, almost failed, and never came to serve Samuel Kirkland’s original purpose, which was to help the Oneidas adapt to a life in settled communities. In fact, few Oneidas came to attend the school, and its students were primarily the children of local white settlers. Yet the academy remained the missionary’s one enduring accomplishment when, a few years after his death, it was transformed into Hamilton College.

The new institution of higher learning was chartered [by the State of New York] in 1812. (quoted from the website)

Starting out as a men’s college, Hamilton became fully coeducational in 1978. Today, it enrolls about 1,850 undergraduates only, split close to 50-50 between men and women. Just over 25 percent are U.S. students of color or international students. About 60 percent of students came from public high schools, while about 40 percent came from private high schools. Like Colgate, Hamilton has a desirable 9:1 student-to-faculty ratio. About 30 percent of classes have nine or fewer students—which seems really impressive, if small classes are something that your child would enjoy and thrive in.

Hamilton students pursue studies in 51 fields, based on a broad liberal arts and sciences curriculum that each student works out with his or her advisor. There are a few requirements—such as at least three writing-intensive courses—but there seems to be quite a bit of freedom in operationalizing the spirit of a liberal arts education.

All students live on campus in 27 residence halls, and many are likely kept busy on 29 varsity sports teams (given the size of the enrollment and the number of teams).

Like Colgate, about 85 percent of admitted students at Hamilton this fall ranked in the top tenth of their high school graduating class. They posted a trio of SAT subtest scores in the low 700s. Tuition and fees at Hamilton run about $49,500 per year—unfortunately, right in the private college ballpark.

Turning to Skidmore College, we have an institution that was started by Lucy Skidmore Scribner in 1903 as the Young Women’s Industrial Club, which, according to its constitution (as quoted on Skidmore’s website), “promoted ‘the cultivation of such knowledge and arts as may promote (members’) well-being, physical, mental, spiritual, and ability to become self-supporting.’ To this end, the Club offered courses in typewriting, bookkeeping, sewing and dressmaking, physical education, music and folk dancing.” And the website makes the following really good point:

Today we may snicker at the courses in sewing, shirtwaist making and millinery, but these were among the few fields in which women could manage businesses, and those courses were embedded in a broader context of creative expression and aesthetic appreciation. (quoted from the website)

In 1911, the institution was chartered as Skidmore School of Arts, a secondary school, and became Skidmore College in 1922. It became coeducational in 1971.

Today, Skidmore enrolls about 2,600 students, virtually all undergraduates (Skidmore appears to be closing its one master’s degree program).   Just over 20 percent of students are U.S. students of color, and about 10 percent are international students. Skidmore undergraduates are studying in more than 40 bachelor’s degree liberal arts and sciences majors, plus pre-professional studies in business, education, social work, and health and exercise sciences. Many students graduate with a double major. All of the arts—both for majors and non-majors—are also prominent on Skidmore’s campus.

Skidmore students enjoy the same appealing student-to-faculty ratio as the other colleges we have been talking about. They participate in 100 student organizations and 19 varsity sports teams.

Entering freshmen post average SAT subtest scores in the low to mid-600s, and about 45 percent were in the top tenth of their high school graduating class. Tuition and fees at Skidmore run about $49,000 per year—just like every place else.

Before we leave upstate, let’s turn the clock way back to 1795 when Union College became the first college chartered by the New York State Board of Regents. According to the website, “The name Union reflected the founders’ desire to create a welcoming, unified academic community open to all the diverse religious and national groups in the region.” That spirit did not, evidently, apply to women, who were not admitted until 1970. Union had the first unified campus plan, done by French architect Joseph Ramée in 1813. In the center of the grounds lies the distinctive round Nott Memorial building.

Union is proud of its history of re-conceiving the liberal arts:

When the classics were considered the only acceptable field of study, we introduced a bachelor’s degree with an emphasis on history, modern languages, science and mathematics. We were the first liberal arts college in the nation to offer engineering.(quoted from the website)

Like other colleges of its kind, Union has its Common Curriculum, which is required of students and gives students fundamental understandings and skills in a range of liberal arts disciplines, in fields that cross disciplines, and in thinking and research. Union students can then choose from about 45 majors (including about 20 interdisciplinary studies majors) or can create their own interdepartmental major.

Currently, Union enrolls about 2,200 undergraduates (no graduate students), with slightly more male than female students. That is about a 10:1 student-to-faculty ratio. It draws from 37 states and 29 countries—so not quite as far ranging as some other colleges we have looked at. Freshmen last year posted an average high school GPA of about a 3.4, and about 70 percent were in the top tenth of their high school graduating class. This year’s freshmen posted average SAT subtest scores in the mid- to high 600s (with scores higher in math than in critical reading and writing). However, submitting college admission test scores is optional for most students at Union (unless applicants have been homeschooled or are applying to some special programs). The website advises that applicants submit their scores if they are at or above the average scores of applicants, which the website provides. About two-thirds of applicants do submit scores.

Union offers students 100-plus student organizations, 20 fraternities and sororities, and 26 or so varsity sports teams. All first-year students and some upperclassmen live in Minerva Houses, which are all-purpose academic and social self-governed residences. Union charges a comprehensive fee (including tuition, room, and board) of about $62,000 per year (for three 10-week trimesters), with about $51,000 of that making up the tuition and fees we have been quoting for other colleges in our episodes.

Let’s turn now to the three colleges downstate: Vassar College in Poughkeepsie and Sarah Lawrence College in Yonkers, both originally women’s colleges, and Bard College in Annandale-on-Hudson.

Vassar College, founded in 1861, is located about 75 miles north of New York City in the beautiful Hudson Valley, which we spoke about in an earlier episode as the location of the State University of New York at New Paltz. It chose to become coeducational in 1969, after deciding not to merge with Yale University.

Vassar’s approximately 2,400 undergraduates—about 65 percent of whom come from public high schools—are about 35 percent students of color and about 10 percent international students. They choose from a broad range of about 50 liberal arts and sciences majors. Interestingly, Vassar has a longstanding commitment to teaching from original source materials, including a rare book collection, manuscripts, and the personal papers of noted scholars and writers. It also has a longstanding commitment to art; it was the first college to have a museum, which actually is older than New York City’s world-renowned Metropolitan Museum of Art.

About 98 percent of students live on campus, taking part in over 100 student organizations and 23 varsity sports teams. About 70 percent of faculty also live on or near the campus, with one or two faculty families living in each residence hall. So there are ways for students to develop relationships with faculty members—in addition to the very low 8:1 student-to-faculty ratio.

Vassar requires either the SAT plus two SAT Subject Tests (in different subjects) or the ACT plus the writing exam. This fall’s freshmen had average SAT subtest scores in the low 700s and an A– (unweighted) high school GPA. About 70 percent of them graduated in the top tenth of their high school class. Tuition and fees run about $51,000 a year.

Founded in 1860, Bard College is located on the Hudson River about 90 miles north of New York City—yet another college in our lovely Hudson River Valley. Some people know Bard for its slightly wild-looking Fisher Center for the Performing Arts, designed by famed architect Frank Gehry. Bard also is noted for its strong commitment to Early College high school programs, running high schools in New York and other states, which enroll almost 1,000 students.

Today, Bard serves about 2,000 undergraduates and about 200 graduate students. About 25 percent are international students. The undergraduate student-to-faculty ratio is 10:1, with courses taught by full faculty members. Bard also offers 15 graduate degree programs at U.S. and international locations, including at the main campus.

“The Love of Learning,” a piece by Bard President Leon Botstein that can be found on the website, addresses the question of what college is for and what kinds of learning and teaching are important for colleges to preserve. You really should go read it because I cannot possibly do it justice. One of my favorite paragraphs is this:

No department wants to become a “service department” without its own majors, relegated to teaching skills and materials to students who are primarily interested in other subjects. It does not seem sufficiently dignified for the purpose of an English department, for example, to educate a literate physician. This is unfortunate. Academic departments often function as if they were merchants in a bazaar, hustling undergraduates to become majors. Administrations, in turn, measure success by counting heads in terms of enrollments that derive from majors: the more majors, the more successful the department. This pattern even spills down to the college applicant, who is asked a ridiculous question: What would you like to major in? (quoted from the website)

In the interest of providing a truly liberal arts curriculum, Bard has a common curriculum for first-year students, an elaborate set of distribution requirements (I say this with obvious approval), and the intriguing idea of Moderation—a process whereby three professors judge a student’s two specific thoughtful written papers before deciding whether the student can move up from the Lower College to the Upper College after two years of study. Undergraduates at Bard can earn a bachelor’s degree in one of 35 fields.

In addition to its innovative curriculum, Bard offers its students about 100 student organizations and 18 varsity sports teams. Bard’s new freshmen come from 34 states and 20 foreign countries—about half from the New England and Mid-Atlantic states. Their average SAT critical reading and math scores were in the low to mid-600s, and about 50 percent graduated in the top tenth of their high school class. Tuition and fees are about $50,000 per year.

Founded in 1926 (the latest of this group we have looked at), Sarah Lawrence College today enrolls about 1,350 undergraduate students and about 350 graduate students. The undergraduates are about 70 percent female and 25 percent students of color. Sarah Lawrence, which began as Sarah Lawrence College for Women and was named for the wife of its benefactor, first admitted men under the G.I. Bill in 1946 and became fully coeducational in 1968.

Sarah Lawrence offers a unique undergraduate curriculum approach. For example, this is what the website says about its signature seminar-conference courses:

At Sarah Lawrence, 90 percent of classes are small, round-table seminars—all taught directly by faculty.

Every semester, for each of your seminar classes, you will complete conference work: an in-depth, individual project developed in collaboration with faculty during bi-weekly, one-on-one meetings. Each conference project is an opportunity for you to demonstrate your subject mastery by creating original work that builds upon the course in ways that you—and only you—can imagine.

Your conference work may be an academic research paper, a piece of creative writing, a staged reading,
 a scientific inquiry, or fieldwork. Conference work at Sarah Lawrence reflects your passions, interests, and aspirations, so projects take many forms and directions. (quoted from the website)

Students work with their don, or faculty advisor, from the beginning of their four years to create a course of study unique to them. Students major in one or more than one of almost 50 disciplines and take courses in three of four broad liberal arts and sciences areas of study. Student assessment includes an evaluation of critical abilities, detailed narrative evaluations, and traditional letter grades. Sarah Lawrence fields 16 varsity sports teams, known as the Gryphons (that is, part eagle, part lion, for those of you who don’t know).

Sarah Lawrence is also a test-optional college, with about 60 percent of students submitting college admission test scores. The average high school GPA of this fall’s freshmen is about a 3.6. Tuition and fees come in at about $51,000 per year.

2. Institutions with a Special Academic Focus

As we seem to have done fairly often in our virtual tour, let’s look at both arts and technology institutions.

Starting in New York City, let’s take a quick look first at a famous institution devoted to the arts: The Julliard School, located at Lincoln Center in Manhattan. Juilliard started as a music academy in 1905, then added a Dance Division in 1951, and finally added a Drama Division (for training both actors and playwrights) in 1968. We won’t say much about Juilliard, because you have to be impossibly talented to get in; but, if you have an impossibly talented child in music, dance, or drama, then you should certainly take a look. For example, the Actor Training Program accepts only 8 to 10 undergraduates and 8 to 10 graduate students each year; these students then move through a required four-year acting curriculum together as a group.

Interestingly, even though Juilliard awards its bachelor’s degrees in fine arts and in music (offering 14 different music majors), it requires its students to take at least 24 credits in the liberal arts, all taught in small seminar classes:

Juilliard actively promotes a liberal arts education that provides the humanistic, ethical, social, critical, and aesthetic background essential to personal development and professional excellence. Studies in literature, philosophy, history, social sciences, arts, and languages, foster in students a deeper understanding of themselves and the complex world in which they live. . . . Through their work in the Liberal Arts, students refine skills in reading, writing, speaking, and critical thinking, learning to communicate with greater clarity and effectiveness. This program equips them to become active, well-informed citizens; develops their awareness of the social and humanistic dimensions of professional work; and lays the basis for a fulfilling cultural and intellectual life. (quoted from the website)

Juilliard does not require college admission test scores (except for homeschooled students), but does require auditions, of course. Tuition runs about $40,000 per year, and room and board costs at Juilliard are about $15,000 to $18,000 per year. These are certainly high, but actually not so high as other top-tier New York City institutions.

Let’s also look at Pratt Institute, which is located in Brooklyn and is a bit more realistic option, though this time mainly for artistically talented students. Founded in 1887, today Pratt serves about 3,000 undergraduates (about 70 percent female and about 70 percent from outside New York State) and 1,500 graduate students, drawn internationally.

Undergraduates can pursue degrees in architecture, construction management, fine arts, photography, digital arts, graphic design, industrial design, fashion design, interior design, but also film, writing, the history of art and design, and more. The student-to-faculty ratio is 10:1.

First-year students take two Survey of Art courses, two English courses, and the Foundation Core, which is, according to the website, “a series of studio experiences that deal with the analysis of problems in perception, conception, and imagination. The studio work encompasses both 2- and 3-D forms in their optical, technical, and symbolic natures. In addition, students receive an introduction to 4-D time arts through the use of computers and other media. At one point, students may deal with specifically designed structural problems and at another point may examine these problems from expressive, social, and historical perspectives. Through this process, individual imagination, skill, ambition, and preferences are examined.” That sounds both impressive and difficult.

Pratt fields 10 varsity sports teams—though, as we have said for some other great institutions, I don’t think you go to Pratt for the athletics.

Incoming freshmen bring average SAT subtest scores in the very high 500s and an average high school GPA of about a 3.6. All majors, except construction management, require a visual or writing portfolio as part of the application process. Tuition and fees run about $45,000 per year.

Moving upstate now, let’s take a look at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute (RPI) in Troy (which is close to Albany).

RPI, founded in 1824, claims to be the oldest technological research university in the U.S. It offers bachelor’s, master’s, and doctoral degrees and comprises five schools: Engineering; Science; Architecture; Humanities, Arts, and Social Sciences; and the Lally School of Management. RPI also offers bachelor’s and master’s degrees in Information Technology and Web Science. Perhaps the most surprising majors of the 38 undergraduate majors that RPI offers are in psychology and philosophy—both through the Cognitive Science Department (which is devoted to “the scientific study of the mind, brain, and intelligence”). RPI also encourages interdisciplinary study across departments and schools.

RPI’s key research topics are biotechnology and the life sciences; energy and the environment; computational science and engineering; nanotechnology and advanced materials; and media, arts, science, and technology. Its mission, as stated when it was founded, is in “the application of science to the common purposes of life” (quoted from the website).

Today, RPI enrolls about 5,500 undergraduates (about 70 percent male) and almost 1,500 graduate students. Larger than the other institutions we have talked about in this episode, its student-to-faculty ratio is 15:1. RPI also fields 23 varsity sports teams.

I first learned about RPI’s president some years ago when we were doing a project for RPI, and I have to tell you that Shirley Ann Jackson is an impressive person. Here is a bit of her profile from the website:

A theoretical physicist, Dr. Jackson has had a distinguished career that includes senior leadership positions in academia, government, industry, and research. She holds an S.B. in Physics, and a Ph.D. in Theoretical Elementary Particle Physics–both from MIT. She is the first African-American woman to receive a doctorate from MIT—in any field—and has been a trailblazer throughout her career, including as the first African-American woman to lead a top-ranked research university. (quoted from the website)

Last year’s freshman class posted average SAT subtest scores at just about 700, with an average high school GPA of almost a 3.8. About 70 percent finished in the top tenth of their high school graduating class. Tuition and fees run about $49,500.

By the way, you might also want to check out the Rochester Institute of Technology (RIT), if you have a child interested in technical fields of study.

3. Winding Up New York State and Our Virtual Tour

It might be hard for us to leave New York State, but I feel we must. There are plenty of other higher education institutions we have not discussed, any one of which might be right for your child. I could name Clarkson University, St. Lawrence University, Pace University, Manhattan College, Molloy College, Ithaca College, St. John’s University, Yeshiva University, The Cooper Union for the Advancement of Science and Art, Hobart and William Smith Colleges, and more. It’s just as the song says, “I love New York.”

It is even harder for us to end our virtual tour. We have learned a lot about a lot of colleges—some we had known quite well, and some we had not known at all. We hope you learned just as much and that what you learned will prove useful to your child’s search for the perfect college for him or her.

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  • What about our colleagues at The American University in Paris? We are hoping for a safe recovery for all of you.
  • What about Molloy College?
  • What about Manhattan College?

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Episode 12: To Visit Or Not To Visit?

This week, we’re continuing our series on choosing where your child should apply to college by talking about campus visits.

Listen to the podcast to find out about…
When your teenager should visit a college without you
How to take advantage of financial help from colleges to cover travel costs
How to arrange a weekend visit to a college for your teenager

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This week, we’re continuing our series on choosing where your child should apply to college by talking about how many colleges should be added to your list.

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NYCollegeChat Episode 12: To Visit or Not to Visit? - How important is the campus visit?For many decades, one rite of passage for American high schoolers and their parents alike has been the “college tour,” where a parent takes an anxious or blasé teenager (depending on your child) on a tour of colleges that might or might not turn out to be appealing schools to attend. During these college visits, there are campus tours led by college students, question-and-answer sessions with administrators, sometimes a chance to sit in on a class or two, and perhaps the nerve-wracking one-on-one admissions interview.

So, as you and your teenager enter the college applications process, let’s ask this question: How important are college visits? You will actually hear, in our three options, that the answer is always “very important.” Just the when or how those visits occur is what we are going to talk about.

1. Very Important, So Visit Now . . .

. . . because there is no substitute for standing in the main quadrangle or in a classroom building or in a dorm or on the soccer field or on the library steps. It is impossible to convey the feeling of a college’s physical and social and intellectual environment without being there. Why would anyone want to sign up to spend two years or four years at a place that he or she had never seen? By the way, this is true for students who are living on campus and who are living off campus. Your teenager will spend a lot of time at the college—regardless of living in the dorms—and should want to get a feeling for its buildings and its grounds and its setting within its surroundings and, of course, its students, staff, and faculty.

Visiting colleges before applying to them makes a lot of sense because even all colleges of a certain type are not the same. In other words, you cannot visit one or two private four-year colleges and, based on them, know what private four-year colleges are like. You cannot visit one or two public community colleges and, based on them, know what public community colleges are like. You cannot visit one or two urban campuses (or urban colleges with barely any “campus”) and, based on them, know what urban colleges are like.

Visiting a college before applying might convince your teenager not to apply, thus saving you that time and effort and money. But, visiting colleges is not free—especially when they are not in your hometown. Many families cannot afford to take the time off or spend the travel money that it takes to make a college swing through several states—or even through your own state, if it is as large as New York, where you cannot make an inexpensive day trip from one end to the other.

On the other hand, if you have decided to limit your applications to colleges in your hometown or very close by, then you absolutely should visit before applying. Make sure you take a tour of the campus, that you talk with current students, and that you sit in on a class or two, if possible. There is no reason to miss out on this chance to find out what everyday life is like on that campus and how different it might feel from another college campus that could be just minutes away. For example, if you live in New York City and want to stay in New York City for college, you would find out how different the campuses of just these four-year colleges were if you were to visit them: New York University and The New School in Greenwich Village, Columbia University and Barnard College in Morningside Heights, Fordham University at Lincoln Center, Hunter College in midtown, Pace University in downtown—and we have not left Manhattan yet. All of these schools are just a subway ride away for New Yorkers.

2. Very Important, But Visit Later . . .

. . . after acceptances have been received and your teenager is trying to decide which college to attend. After all, it is cheaper to pay the application fee for a college than to spend the money to visit it ahead of time (unless it is in your hometown).

If your teenager is accepted at more than one college, perhaps that is soon enough to spend the time and money to visit those colleges if you are trying to decide among them. It might be that visiting your teenager’s first choice is all that is needed—if the visit is successful and confirms that that college is indeed the right one. Nothing is more cost-effective than that.

3. Very Important, But Visiting Is Not an Option

Sometimes it is just not possible for a family to arrange for a campus visit to several colleges or even to one college, even after acceptances have come in.

In that case, you all can—and should—talk to anyone you can find who has visited any college on your list as a kind of substitute for making the trip yourself. That might be a family friend, a high school friend, a teacher, a school administrator, a guidance counselor, or someone else. Some colleges use alumni interviewers, who could serve this function nicely, too.

Firsthand impressions from someone who has walked on the campus in different seasons of the year, has seen inside the dorms, has talked with faculty or visited a class, has talked with current students or recent graduates, has eaten in the cafeteria, has attended a sports event or a cultural event—all of these impressions can help your teenager make a better decision about where to enroll. Ideally, at least some of those substitutes would be individuals who had been on the campus recently—and preferably someone with a more in-depth feel for the college than one can get from simply walking across the campus. A current professor or current student or recent graduate would be a great choice.

Remember that it is not only about the physical surroundings, but also about the intellectual and social surroundings, which the casual visitor might not be able to pick up on so readily. Photographs in a brochure or on a website or even a virtual campus tour on a website might resolve your questions about the physical surroundings, but cannot answer your questions about the intellectual and social surroundings, which are more likely to affect your satisfaction with your college choice.

Listen to the podcast to find out about…

  • When your teenager should visit a college without you
  • How to take advantage of financial help from colleges to cover travel costs
  • How to arrange a weekend visit to a college for your teenager

Check out these higher education institutions and programs we mention…

In New York State

Outside of New York State

Connect with us through…

Ask your questions or share your feedback by…