Episode 114: It’s College Decision Time!

Listen to the episode in the player, download it here, or subscribe on Google Play MusiciTunesStitcher, or TuneIn.

Well, it is almost April 1, the date by which a lot of colleges will make high school seniors happy or sad. In fact, many colleges have already done that in the past two weeks, with some doing so today and tomorrow. We are sure it is a tense time for lots of families–whether it leads to great joy or considerable disappointment. There is hardly a bigger issue in higher education, of course, than the admissions game, its fairness and unfairness, and its results for thousands and thousands of kids. Whatever the case may be, many of you are now in the position of making a final decision about where your teenager is going to go to college next fall.

Last year in April, we did a series of three episodes on making that college decision–one for above-average students, one for average students, one for below-average students–because we felt that their options and their reasons for choosing one college over another might be very different. You should go back and re-read the show notes or re-listen to Episodes 69, 70, and 71–or, at least, the one that best describes the academic standing of your own teenager. We just can’t do any better now than we did then in pointing out the serious questions you should consider in making that all-important choice with your teenager.

Of course, we know that many of you are too busy, especially right now, to review all three episodes, so we thought we would highlight some of the key points we tried to make in them. We chose points that apply to all seniors, regardless of their academic standing. We will assume for these discussions that seniors have a choice of colleges to attend, though that might mean as few as two colleges or as many as eight or 10 colleges. A small number of options, however, doesn’t necessarily make the choosing process any easier.

1. Rejection by the First-Choice College

Let’s start with what some families will consider the worst-case scenario, even though it likely is not really that: What if your teenager has just been rejected by his or her first choice? In Episode 69, we quoted from some remarkably insightful comments from a young woman named Julia Schemmer, who was rejected by her “dream” school–UCLA. She accepted a spot in the Class of 2019 at the University of California, Riverside. Here are some of the reflections that she offered other teenagers (originally published in High School Insider and re-published by the Los Angeles Times on March 31, 2016, as “Rejected from your dream school? Remember these three things“):

  1. It isn’t your fault. When a college rejection letter comes in the mail, it is easy to immediately invalidate everything you have ever done and view your experiences as a high school student as incomplete or inadequate. It’s not true. Many universities have rigorous application requirements with expectations that are often left unknown to anyone but the admissions board. You could have the perfect SAT, the most extracurricular activities, or the best GPA, but it could be true that the college wasn’t looking for things like that. . . .

  2. It’s not the end of the world. There are so many colleges and universities that would absolutely love to have you walk through their door. Whether it’s expanding your knowledge of other universities that may be better suited to your goals or working hard to transfer to your dream school, there are still opportunities to attend a great learning institution. When I decided to commit to attending a school different from my dream school, of course I was disappointed. However, I currently love the university that I attend and the major I am pursuing. If anything, UCLA will always be an option for my graduate school education. (quoted from the article)

Thank you, again, Julia! These are both excellent and important points. Neither is easy for kids to accept, however. No matter how many times any adult or older teenager says these two things, it is likely that kids will simply need to come to terms with this rejection over time. Parents, it’s not going to happen in a day or two–no matter how good you think the college options still on the table are. So, bear with your teenager while he or she goes through the stages of profound disappointment, whatever they are

2. Selectivity of the College

Let’s look at the selectivity of the college options that your teenager now has. We are going to assume that those colleges are not necessarily equivalent in terms of their selectivity. In other words, your child might have been accepted at a couple of selective private colleges (though not necessarily at a highly selective college), at a couple of less-selective private colleges, at your public flagship university or another public university in your state, and/or at a public flagship university or another public university in another state. You might also have a local community college on that list. But even if your child has just two options of colleges with differing degrees of selectivity, the decision-making process is still quite serious.

Let’s put the financial aspects of this decision aside for a minute and look first at the selectivity of the colleges. Let me start with our conclusion, which remains the same as last year’s conclusion, since no new research has indicated anything that would make us change our minds: Your teenager should go to the most selective school that accepted him or her. Are there any arguments on the other side of that decision? Yes, but they are not persuasive.

Apart from the undeniable prestige of attending a college that is more selective, we have said previously–based on a lot of data from various colleges–that graduation rates are higher at more-selective colleges. In other words, your teenager is more likely to graduate with a degree if he or she attends a more-selective college. Furthermore–and this is almost as important–your teenager is more likely to finish that degree in a reasonable amount of time, ideally four years (rather than the longer timelines many college students now operate on, where six years is not surprising). By the way, in the long run, getting out on time saves you money?sometimes tens of thousands of dollars.

Practically speaking, what does our advice mean? It means that you should talk with your teenager about going to the toughest, most academically prestigious college possible. Not just because of the prestige factor, but because it will affect his or her future–both four years from now as graduation approaches and likely a whole lot longer in terms of the classmates your teenager will have and where they will all end up working many years from now.

Now, we know that many advisors would start talking to you about “fit” right now. We have even talked about “fit”?that is, how well your teenager will “fit” into the college community, based on brains or athletic ability or race or religion or socioeconomic status or any number of other things. We, too, want your teenager to fit into the college community that he or she chooses; we are just hoping that it will be an academically strong and well-resourced college community, with great professors and with students who progress through it and graduate on time.

Here are a few questions we asked last year: What if that most selective college is far away from home and you and your teenager wanted a close-to-home option? What if that most selective college is private and you and your teenager wanted a public option? What if that most selective college is located in an urban setting and you and your teenager wanted a rural or suburban option? What if that most selective college is not faith based and you and your teenager wanted a faith-based option?

Well, you are going to have to weigh all of these factors. But we are suggesting here that the selectivity of the college be moved to the top of your list of factors to consider when making this important decision.

By the way, the most selective college your teenager was accepted to might well be a public university?especially if it is your state’s or another state’s flagship university. As we have said many times, there is no prestige in attending a private college that is not as good as a great public college. For a list of great public colleges, go back and listen or re-listen to the nationwide virtual college tour we took you all on in Episodes 27-53. You will see the same names come up over and over again, including these: the University of California, Berkeley; the University of Michigan; the University of Virginia; the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill; the College of William and Mary; the University of Iowa; the University of Washington; and the University of Texas at Austin. And there are quite a few more. If your teenager got into one of them, that is worth thinking really hard about.

And let us add one note about community colleges for those of you who did not listen in last week when we devoted Episode 113 to community colleges. If your child is at least an average student in high school, we don’t think that a community college is likely to be his or her best choice, although we understand that there might be financial reasons or family reasons to keep a child close to home and within commuting distance and that a community college might fit those circumstances very nicely.

Nonetheless, the difficulty that many students seem to have in graduating from a community college or in transferring from a community college to a four-year college really worries us. Listen to last week’s episode to find out about the scandalously low graduation and transfer statistics. Last week, we concluded that, unless you think your teenager is smarter, harder working, more motivated, and more goal oriented than the typical community college student, your teenager is likely to have some difficulty graduating from a community college and/or transferring to a four-year college. So, talk with your teenager and think hard about that choice.

3. Your Choice for Your Teenager

What if your teenager has just been accepted by the college that you really want him or her to attend, but that college is not your teenager’s first or second or even third choice? Who wins? That is one of the worst problems we can imagine.

As a parent and as an adult, I would like to say that you should win because you have been around longer and seen more and perhaps you even know more and are likely paying the bill. But I don’t think you can win in this situation without convincing your teenager that you are right. In previous episodes (like Episode 69), we have told many anecdotes that prove this point.

Here is the bottom line for us: College is hard, and it is almost impossible when the student is not reasonably happy there. So, parents, we believe that you will eventually have to give in to what your teenager wants because, in fact, he or she is the one who is going to have to do the work.

By the way, for all of you parents who have younger children coming up through high school and just starting the college process, here is your lesson today: Don’t let your teenager apply to colleges that you don’t want them to attend. It’s as simple as that. If you are satisfied, even if you are not necessarily thrilled, with every college on your teenager’s application list, that ensures that you will be satisfied with whichever one is your teenager’s final choice.

4. What About the Cost?

So, now let’s talk about money. What if your teenager got a great financial aid package–even a full ride–at a college that is not nearly as good as a more selective college that he or she was accepted by? Clearly, that is a hard choice. And I am not going to say to go out and find a bunch of obscure scholarships that go begging every year (though I know that happens). I am going to say that the best possible college education is something worth investing in–even if that means loans that your teenager gets and/or loans that you as parents get. I know that is not a popular position, and I know that many advisors and parents alike believe that having a student graduate with little or no debt is the most important thing. I simply don’t agree. By the way, as we have already said, attending a better college will likely ensure an on-time graduation–which, in the long run, can save you a lot of money on extra years of schooling.

Paying for college is hard–especially paying for private selective colleges. That’s just one more reason we love those great public flagship universities.

5. Next Steps

If your teenager has not already visited all of the colleges that have accepted him or her and that are still under serious consideration, you probably should do that now, if it is logistically and financially feasible. As we have said before at USACollegeChat, this is the best time to visit: when the list of colleges is short enough that the college tour can be reasonably cost-effective and efficient. The visits can be helpful both for your teenager in making his or her decision and for you as a parent in accepting that decision. Speaking as a parent, I think it would be difficult to send a child off to college without ever having seen it; and, yet, my husband and I did that when we sent our middle child off to Richmond, The American International University in London. Well, at least we had been to London, I told myself at the time. And it all worked out. We hope it will all work out for you and your teenager, too.

Here is an offer that we made last year at this time. Call me and tell me what your teenager’s choices are and what your circumstances are. I will be happy to give you some free advice, for what it’s worth. I do this all the time, and I would love to do it for you. Nothing is more important than making the right decision now. The next four years are critical.

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Episode 93: Narrowing Down Your Teenager’s College List–Step 1

Listen to the episode in the player, download it here, or subscribe on Google Play MusiciTunesStitcher, or TuneIn.

We have put off narrowing down your teenager’s long summer list of college options as long as we can. I hate to start the narrowing because it always seems to me as though the colleges taken off your list might be opportunities missed. But we all have to remember that there is not just one college that is a good choice for your teenager. There are likely quite a few colleges that would be not just good, but excellent, choices for your teenager. So, in that spirit, let’s see where we stand here at the end of September.

First, let us remind you that October 1 marks the opening up of the online avenue for filing the Free Application for Federal Student Aid, lovingly known as the FAFSA. There is no earthly reason not to fill it out and file it ASAP. We are not FAFSA experts, but there are many people who are. If you are unsure about FAFSA, look at available websites or seek help from your teenager’s high school. But, whatever it takes, get the form filed, even if you are not sure you will need it and even if you are not expecting a financial windfall in financial aid.

Second, let us remind you, as we have been doing for the past couple of weeks, that the first deadlines are approaching for Early Decision and Early Action admissions–mostly around November 1. If your teenager is interested enough in a college to apply under an Early Decision plan or interested enough in one or more colleges to apply under an Early Action plan, then you have already narrowed your teenager’s list of college options. However, your teenager will need to keep a few extra colleges on the list in case the Early Decision choice or the Early Action choices don’t work out. In that spirit, let’s look at Step 1 in narrowing down the list.

Let’s review your 10 summer assignments because, if you didn’t do them, there might not be much of a list to narrow down:

We are hoping that you still have at least 20 or so on your list right now.

As we look back at the 10 assignments, we notice that some have to do with college location, some with size, some with selectivity, some with the student body, some with academics, and some with logistics, like housing and safety. We did not talk much this summer about the cost of attending each college because it is hard to figure out cost without knowing what kind of financial aid package your teenager might get from any given college, based on your family’s income, your state of residence, and the academic or other qualifications of your teenager. Everybody else seems to want to talk only about cost, so we would like to start somewhere else.

We found it difficult to choose which filter to look at first, knowing that it would knock some colleges off your list right away and being sorry about not giving those colleges a chance to stay on your list based on their other really great qualities. But something has to go first. So, let’s look at selectivity of the colleges on your list.

1. Step 1: College Selectivity Filter

As we said in our book How To Find the Right College: A Workbook for Parents of High School Students (on sale at amazon.com through 2016), this question is the one most high school guidance counselors bring up first. You have probably heard people say that a student should apply to a “safety” school that he or she is sure to be admitted to; a couple of “reach” schools that would be great, but might be beyond or just beyond what the student’s high school record warrants; and then some others in the middle that the student has a reasonable chance of being admitted to, though not guaranteed. Of course, that is really nothing more than common sense.

As for a safety school, we like to say that you should consider public four-year colleges (especially branch campuses of your state flagship public university, rather than the main campus, or a second-tier state system of public colleges that is not as prestigious as the state flagship university system). Some states have more public options than others, thus providing an array of safety school choices. We continue to focus only on four-year colleges in our search, believing that you can add the local public community college as an option at any point without too much difficulty.

As we find we still have to say to parents of teenagers, it is our opinion that not-very-selective private colleges that could reasonably serve as safety schools for most high school students are not likely to be academically better or more respected than whatever well-regarded public colleges are available in a student’s home state. Why would you pay more money to have your teenager go to a college that is not better? And, as we said many times during our nationwide virtual tour of colleges in Episodes 27 through 53, there is no prestige in going to a private college that is not as good as a great public college.

As for “reach” schools, keep in mind that applying to colleges is time consuming and not free (unless you have application-fee waivers, which are sometimes based on family income and sometimes based on a student’s excellent high school record). Applying to reach schools that enroll a majority of students with significantly higher high school GPAs (that is, the grade point average of high school courses) and/or or with significantly higher SAT or ACT scores than your teenager has might turn out to be a waste of time. So, should your teenager rule out applying to the most selective schools, given the chances that being admitted are slim, even if he or she is a good student? No, but perhaps consider applying to just two or three–and only if your teenager is truly interested in going to them. Applying to too many will likely make a disappointing acceptance season for your teenager.

What should you be looking for in terms of selectivity? I would say that you should feel okay about colleges where your teenager’s high school grades and SAT or ACT scores are average or just above average for that college. But, further, you should feel good about colleges where your teenager’s grades and test scores are above the 75th percentile of admitted and/or enrolled freshmen. This is part of the information–along with class rank–that we asked you to research and record back in Episode 82 in Assignment #2.

As we have said before, the two obvious academic problems for applicants are that their GPA is not as high as it might be or that their SAT and/or ACT scores are not as high as they might be. Either of these problems makes choosing to put too many truly selective colleges on your teenager’s list a risky move. However, as we have said before, having mediocre or low test scores is likely an easier problem to solve than having mediocre or low high school grades.

While students’ test scores are important to most top-ranked colleges, there are some colleges–including some really good colleges–that do not put so high a priority, or indeed almost any priority at all, on these test scores. Check out our book or earlier episodes of USACollegeChat for more information about and a long list of what are referred to as “test-optional” colleges and “test-flexible” colleges, which might be a help for your teenager if those scores are not what you had hoped for. You can also search for and find all kinds of lists of “test-optional” and “test-flexible” colleges online, including at the National Center for Fair and Open Testing website.

Remember that admissions policies change, and you should check on a college’s website to tell just exactly how the college does or does not require or use SAT or ACT scores. For example, some colleges require standardized test scores for some applicants, like homeschooled students and international students, but not for others, like students who are U.S. citizens and went to high school in the U.S. So do your homework–again.

The next part of the college selectivity filter is something less obvious, and that is to double check the number of credits or courses required or recommended for admission to the college or to the college or school that you are interested in within the university, along with any specific courses required (e.g., Algebra II). We asked you to research and record this information for each college on your list back in Episode 83 in Assignment #3. Keep in mind that a college does not usually penalize a student whose high school does not offer a course that the college requires for admission–like the third year of a foreign language. However, the closer your teenager can get to meeting all of the required courses and all of the recommended courses, the better chance he or she has for admission–obviously.

2. Do You Have Enough Left on the List?

So, what I would do if I were you, is look back at the data my teenager recorded for Assignment #2 and compare each college’s figures to my own teenager’s high school GPA, SAT or ACT scores (that is, whatever scores you currently have, even if he or she will retake the test this fall), and class rank (if he or she has one). I might divide the colleges into three piles: (1) those that look out of reach or almost out of reach, given the grades and scores of admitted or enrolled freshmen; (2) those that post average grades and scores about like my own teenager’s; and (3) those where my teenager’s grades and scores look well above average.

With that done, I would keep all of the colleges in the second pile on the list for now, especially if my teenager had taken or will take this year the required and recommended high school courses.

Next, I would talk with my teenager about the colleges in the first pile–that is, those that seem like a real long shot academically. I would look particularly favorably on those where my teenager had taken or will take this year the required and recommended high school courses. I might keep my teenager’s two or three favorites from that pile on the list for now, but I would try to help my teenager let the others in the first pile go.

Finally, I would talk with my teenager about the colleges in the third pile, where my teenager’s grades and scores are well above average, to see whether my teenager is holding on to too many “safety” schools, especially ones that are not truly appealing to him or her. I often find myself saying something like this to kids: “Why is that on your list? You are going to get into a better private college than that and you are also going to get into a better public flagship university than that. You don’t need it on your list, and you shouldn’t go there even if you get in.”

So, Step 1 is to narrow down your teenager’s list of college options by being brutal in reviewing the first pile (those that are too academically demanding of their applicants) and equally brutal in reviewing the third pile (those that are not academically demanding enough). We would like you to have at least 15 still on the list as we move forward.

The Kindle ebook version of our book, How To Find the Right College, is on sale for $0.99 through 2016! Read it on your Kindle device or download the free Kindle app for any tablet or smartphone. The book is also available as a paperback workbook.

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Episode 82: Assignment #2–Looking at College Admission Standards

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So, parents of juniors (and parents of freshmen and sophomores who are thinking ahead) you had your first assignment in the college search process last week. It was a pretty big assignment and one that parents of freshmen and sophomores could easily start now so that they can do it at a calmer pace.

Looking At College Admission Standards on USACollegeChat podcast

The point of the assignment was to do the exact opposite of what many experts might be telling you this summer. Our advice was to start expanding your teenager’s list of college options so that you are truly ready to narrow it in the fall. While that might seem counterintuitive as the summer days begin, we gave you a lot of great reasons to do it. If you forget them, listen to last week’s episode (Episode 81). Or just trust us.

We challenged you and your teenager to choose at least one college in every state to put on what we called “your teenager’s long summer list of college options.” And, for those of you who were too wimpy to do that, we offered these options:

  • Choose at least one college in each of 25 states of your choice to put on your teenager’s long summer list of college options.
  • Choose at least two colleges in every geographic region of the U.S. to put on your teenager’s long summer list of college options–plus, let’s say, two additional colleges in your home state.
  • Choose five public flagship universities to put on your teenager’s long summer list of college options.
  • Choose at least one college not in the U.S. to put on your teenager’s long summer list of college options.

Then we challenged your teenager to read about each college on the list on the college’s website before talking with you and recommending whether it should be kept on the list. I can’t say often enough how much you can learn from reading a college website–and, more importantly, from reading 20 or 30 college websites. And, last week, we gave you a list of facts and figures for your teenager to look up on each website and write down.

So, now we come to Assignment #2. Remember that the more you can get your teenager to do, the easier it will be for you and the more your teenager will likely learn; however, you will still need to provide some life experience and adult judgment.

1. Your Assignment #2

Download the Assignment #2 Worksheet

So, let’s return to the colleges on your teenager’s long summer list of college options, however many you have. Even if you did a lackluster job of Assignment #1, there are hopefully at least 20 colleges on that list and, even more hopefully, they are not all in your home state.

Have your teenager now look at the admission standards for incoming freshmen at each college. These can be found under various headings on college websites. Sometimes they are part of the narrative on the Admissions home page. Sometimes they are in something called a Class Profile (of students who enrolled) or an Admitted Student Profile (of students who were admitted, but did not necessarily enroll). Some of the information can be found if you search for “common data set” on the college’s website. The common data set data are both comprehensive and excellent. Some of the information can always be found if you do a Google search for College Navigator (sponsored by the National Center for Education Statistics) and then search there by college.

What we are talking about now are admission standards, not admission requirements. In other words, we are not talking about things you have to do in order to apply, like filling out the application, getting recommendations, completing supplemental essays, and the rest. We are talking about what the students are like who get accepted by the college and/or about the students who actually choose to enroll in the college. There are at least four pieces of information worth considering when judging your own teenager’s chances of being admitted.

Assignment #2 is to have your teenager find out three of these four pieces of information for each college on that long summer list. (Piece #4 will be coming up next week, so stay tuned.) Here’s why: Because these pieces of information looked at as a whole for a college might make you think twice about some of the colleges on the list. Again, make sure your teenager writes down or records in some more electronic fashion the information that he or she finds. It will be impossible to remember it all.

2. High School Grade Point Average (GPA)

For most, but not all, colleges, your teenager will be able to find the average (typically, the mean) high school GPA of the students admitted to the freshman class the previous year or of the students who actually enrolled in the freshman class the previous year. This number will look like it is on a 4-point scale. For example, a great college might show an average high school GPA of 3.8, meaning that its admitted or enrolled students did really well in their high school courses.

But here is something that has changed a bit in the past decade or two. As Advanced Placement and International Baccalaureate courses have become increasingly popular and as more high schools have started to weight students’ grades in those courses (and sometimes in their own honors courses as well), we have seen a rise in high school GPAs. In other words, when a student in a high school with weighted grades gets an A in a regular course, that A is worth a 4.0. But if a student in a high school with weighted grades gets an A in an Advanced Placement course, that A is worth a 5.0. The grade has more “weight.”

If a student in a high school with weighted grades takes a handful of Advanced Placement courses and gets an A in every one (worth a 5.0 every time) and an A in every other course (worth a 4.0 every time), that student’s GPA will be higher than a 4.0, for obvious mathematical reasons. Now, of course, that is unlikely to happen; but, when a student in a high school with weighted grades gets a B in an Advanced Placement course, for example, it is worth a 4.0, which will help his or her GPA more than a B in a regular course, which is worth only a 3.0.

Whether your high school does or does not weight course grades is something that should be part of the high school narrative profile that your high school’s counselor will send off to colleges with students’ high school transcripts. So that is helpful to colleges in judging your teenager’s GPA.

Nonetheless, one effect of all of this weighting of high school course grades appears to be that average high school GPAs of incoming freshmen seem to be on the rise. We can tell this anecdotally by the fact that many colleges we profiled in our virtual nationwide tour of colleges (Episodes 27 through 53), including some not super-selective ones, post surprisingly high average GPAs for the incoming freshmen class–over a 3.5, for example. Perhaps college-bound high school kids as a whole group have gotten much, much brighter, but I am not convinced of that.

So, look carefully at the average high school GPAs that colleges are putting out there and prepare to be surprised. And, keep in mind, that some colleges will not provide one.

3. High School Class Rank

There have been a number of stories in the education media lately about school districts that do not want to name valedictorians any longer. Why? Because they have found that the competition for that spot sometimes comes down to a thousandth of a point in that GPA we just discussed and, further, because they have found that kids are so focused on getting that extra-high GPA that they will actually not take high school courses they would otherwise take to broaden their studies–or should take to prepare for college–for fear of hurting their GPAs. Wow. Forty years ago, we didn’t see that coming.

Of course, for many years, some high schools have simply not provided class ranks for a variety of reasons, and it is not a requirement from any governmental entity or governing body that high schools must provide class ranks. Similarly, some colleges will simply say they are not available for admitted or enrolled freshmen.

When they are available, class ranks will often be given as the percentage of admitted or enrolled freshmen who ranked in the top 5 percent or 10 percent or 25 percent or in the top tenth or in the top half or in the bottom half and so on of their high school class. Great colleges, for example, will show a very high percentage of admitted or enrolled freshmen in the top 5 percent or top tenth of their high school classes. Figures like these will give your teenager one way to judge how he or she stacks up against admitted or enrolled freshmen at a college, if your teenager has a class rank. And, by the way, some colleges will actually boast about the number of high school valedictorians they have in the freshmen class.

4. Admission Test Scores

Well, we feel as though we have talked about this topic often, including discussions of the colleges that do not require any admission test scores and the colleges that are “test-optional”–that is, when students may provide them or not. Feel free to re-listen to early episodes on this topic.

But, in terms of judging a college’s admission standards, I will say that College Navigator does a good job of providing the percentage of students who submitted SAT and ACT scores as well as the SAT and ACT scores at the 25th percentile of students and at the 75th percentile of students. In other words, 25 percent of students scored at or below the score at the 25th percentile, and 25 percent of students scored above the 75th percentile, according to College Navigator. So, if your teenager’s scores fall above the 75th percentile, that is good. If your teenager’s scores fall right in the middle between the 25th percentile and the 75th percentile, that would be just about average for the college’s admitted or enrolled students. And if your teenager’s scores fall below the 25th percentile, that would not be nearly so promising in terms of being admitted.

Some college websites do provide the actual average, or mean, admission test score, and I find that helpful, too.

One last point, as we have said before. Many colleges that do not require the submission of SAT or ACT scores seem, nonetheless, to receive them from many applicants. Because those scores are usually quite good, it seems obvious that students with good scores do, in fact, supply them to test-optional colleges. How those scores figure into admissions decisions is anybody’s guess. But, I think that the point is this: If you have good SAT or ACT scores, you should probably submit them to test-optional colleges, even though they are not required. There are only perhaps a handful of colleges that say–flat out–that they do not want any test scores sent to them and that they will not use them for any reason, including Hampshire College, one of my favorites.

These three pieces of information–average high school GPA, high school class rank, and SAT or ACT scores–will give you one reasonable indication of whether a college your teenager is interested in should be kept on your teenager’s long summer list of college options. But don’t go throwing any colleges off just yet. There is plenty of time to do that later on.

Download the Assignment #2 Worksheet

The Kindle ebook version of our book, How To Find the Right College, is on sale for $1.99 all summer long! Read it on your Kindle device or download the free Kindle app for any tablet or smartphone. The book is also available as a paperback workbook.

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Episode 70: College Decision Time for Above-Average Students

Listen to the episode in the player, download it here, or subscribe on iTunes, Stitcher, or TuneIn.

Last week, we started a new series aptly titled “Decisions, Decisions, Decisions” since April is a time for lots of families to figure out where their kids are actually going to college next fall. With just a couple of weeks to go till many colleges want students to make commitments to attend, we are in the middle of a set of three episodes on making the college decision. As we said last week, the episodes will be divided up according to how good a student your kid was in high school and what his or her options probably are now.

College Decision Time for Above-Average Students on USACollegeChat podcast

Let me repeat that I didn’t say how bright or how smart your kid is, because I believe that there are plenty of bright and smart kids who somehow did not become the very best high school students they could have been. But, fortunately, there is time to correct that in college.

Today, we are going to talk about college decision-making for above-average high school students. Last week, we talked about college decision-making for average high school students and about the fact that “average” these days doesn’t mean what it meant years ago. We discussed what looks like high school grade inflation to us, though it might be simply a result of the increasingly prevalent practice of weighting grades in Advanced Placement and International Baccalaureate courses and perhaps in dual-credit college courses. Several weeks ago, our guest Harold Levy, executive director of the Jack Kent Cooke Foundation, took the words right out of our mouths when he gave his own opinions about weighted GPAs. (Check out his thoughts in Episode 67.)

By “above-average students” according to today’s standards, we are going to mean students with A’s in their high school classes and SAT subtest scores above 650 or even 700. Such students, we believe, are likely to have a number of acceptances from colleges at this point in the admissions process, if they made wise choices when applying.

Next week, by the way, we will focus on below-average students headed to college and how to make the right choice for them. So, stay tuned.

1. College Rating and Ranking Systems

Let’s start today’s discussion by examining college rankings and the variety of publications, corporations, and organizations that make them. If you have a really bright high school kid at home, the chances are good that you all looked at one or more of these ranking systems when you were choosing colleges to apply to. It’s actually hard to avoid them, especially since so many college websites proudly list their rankings by various systems on various quality indicators—from best national universities to healthiest college towns to greenest campuses to top cities for outside activities to most bike-friendly campuses and many more. And then there are the rankings of virtually every undergraduate, graduate, and professional academic department imaginable. Sometimes these rankings are quite impressive—or at least seem to be quite impressive.

Why do I say “seem to be”? Well, as often as you find rankings of one kind or another, you will also find articles written by admissions officers and journalists and educational researchers explaining why you shouldn’t pay attention to the rankings. Researchers talk about colleges that “game the system” by manipulating the data that they send in and that then figure into the rankings. For example, researchers say that some colleges encourage many students to apply, even if they don’t really have the grades and test scores to be admitted; but, that lets the college reject those students and then say how selective it is when admitting students. Ranking systems that use rejection rate or acceptance rate (depending how you look at it) could indeed be gamed by such a strategy. But that is just one example. You can certainly find more.

Let me say right now that we are not experts on college ranking systems and that we have not done any independent studies of them or, specifically, any analyses of their formulas for ranking colleges. As you might guess, all of the formulas are different—that is, they take into account different, but overlapping, sets of data about the colleges as well as sometimes ratings of the colleges by various qualified groups (like college presidents). Let’s take a look at one well-reasoned critique of one ranking system as an example.

Reed College, you might recall from our nationwide virtual tour, is an excellent liberal arts college in Oregon (check back in Episode 40). Reed’s website makes quite an elaborate and detailed case against the ranking system developed and promoted by U.S. News & World Report, which is one of the best-known systems around. Chances are pretty good that you have looked at one or another of the ranked lists compiled by U.S. News & World Report, and we have, too.

However, Reed no longer completes the nationwide survey that U.S. News & World Report administers to collect data from colleges in order to rank those colleges. Reed makes this statement on its website (see the website for the full story on Reed’s objections to the U.S. News & World Report ranking system):

Reed is committed to sharing accurate, reliable information with prospective students and the general public. We also recognize the usefulness of independent guides in helping prospective students identify potential colleges. For that reason, Reed does provide information to several college guides—including ones by Barron’s, the Fiske Guide to Colleges, Peterson’s, Colleges That Change Lives, and the Princeton Review—because we believe they do a better job of describing the experience, student culture, and academic environment that Reed provides. And, yes, we occasionally repost news items ranking us as #7 on the list of nerdiest colleges or #17 on the list of outdoorsy colleges—after all, we enjoy wacky lists as much as anyone. (quoted from the website)

So, what’s the point here? The point is that college rankings by various organizations and researchers and publications are fine to look over and consider and even enjoy. But because they are all likely flawed in different ways, you can’t use any one of them as the way to make the final choice of a college for your child. Just because a list, even a prominent one, ranks one college in fifth place and another college in tenth place doesn’t necessarily mean that the first college is actually better than the second one. Period. And that’s not even addressing whether it is a better college for your child.

And yet, on the other hand, if every publication you can find puts a college your child is interested in attending in the top 10 or 20 on a list, it is likely that the college is a good one. It’s what qualitative researchers call triangulating the data. In other words, looking at data collected using various methods can give us a more valid, more fully comprehensive view of the subject being evaluated—in this case, colleges.

Just to underscore how difficult it is to rate and rank colleges objectively and accurately, let’s look for a minute at President Obama’s attempt to do so. Here’s a recap of what happened to his administration’s plan, according to the following excerpts from Michael D. Shear’s article last September in The New York Times:

President Obama … abandoned his two-year effort to have the government create a system that explicitly rates the quality of the nation’s colleges and universities, a plan that was bitterly opposed by presidents at many of those institutions.

Under the original idea, announced by Mr. Obama with fanfare in 2013, all of the nation’s 7,000 institutions of higher education would have been assigned a ranking by the government, with the aim of publicly shaming low-rated schools that saddle students with high debt and poor earning potential.

Instead, the White House … unveiled a website that does not attempt to rate schools with any kind of grade, but provides information to prospective students and their parents about annual costs, graduation rates and salaries after graduation.

Mr. Obama praised the new website …, saying that by using the new College Scorecard, ‘Americans will now have access to reliable data on every institution of higher education.’

But the new website falls far short of what the president had hoped for. When he announced the plan …, Mr. Obama put colleges on notice that schools performing poorly on his rating system would eventually lose access to billions of dollars in federal student aid money.

‘I’m proposing major new reforms that will shake up the current system,’ Mr. Obama said at the time. ‘Taxpayers shouldn’t be subsidizing students to go to schools where the kids aren’t graduating.’

Aides to Mr. Obama had described him as privately demanding from his staff bold action that would hold schools accountable, especially those that had low graduation rates and poor postgraduate income potential — even as they continued charging students tens of thousands of dollars each year to attend….

But the plan quickly ran into fierce opposition. Critics, including many of the presidents at elite private colleges, lobbied furiously against the idea of a government rating system….

…[M]ore than a year later, the new scorecard … does not attempt to rank colleges. And a fact sheet distributed by the White House makes no mention of linking the availability of federal student aid to a government ranking of a specific college.

…[T]he new scorecard — which can be found at collegescorecard.ed.gov — will allow students and parents to compare schools based on measurements that are important to them. Using the website, for example, a student might search for schools with average annual costs of under $10,000, a graduation rate higher than 75 percent and average salaries after graduation of more than $50,000 per year.

The data is based on students who have received a federal loan or grant to attend college, but officials said their economists believe it is representative of all students. And they said the new government data offers critical information that is not available elsewhere….

You’ll be able to see how much each school’s graduates earn, how much debt they graduate with, and what percentage of a school’s students can pay back their loan,” Mr. Obama said….

Administration officials said the data that powers the scorecard was also being freely shared with companies and other organizations that already offer online college search tools. White House officials said three such sites — ScholarMatch, StartClass and College Abacus — already have begun using the data to enhance the information they provide.

Officials said they hoped the information would help students avoid making poor choices when deciding where to attend college. (excerpted and quoted from the article)

Regardless of whether you agree with the methodology that the Obama administration’s College Scorecard is using (and I am not sure that I do), what’s the lesson here—besides the obvious fact that college administrators don’t want the federal government to rate colleges, especially if those ratings are tied to access to federal student aid?

The lesson is that it’s hard to rate and rank colleges. It’s hard to do fairly. It’s hard to do if you are a private organization. It’s hard to do if you are the federal government. Nonetheless, it will continue to be done by various groups, and people will look at those rankings, and they will make judgments based on them for their own children. We would say that you should be careful when you use ranking systems to make those judgments and that you should consider the results of at least three ranking systems before judging any college.

2. Selectivity of the College

Let’s look at selectivity of the colleges that have accepted your child. We are going to assume that, if your child is an above-average high school student headed for college, he or she probably has acceptances from two or more colleges and that those colleges are not necessarily equivalent in terms of their selectivity. In other words, your child might have been accepted at a couple of highly selective private colleges, at a couple of selective private colleges, at your public flagship university, and at a public flagship university in another state. You might have used a couple of other public universities or less-selective private colleges as safety schools. You might even have used a local community college as a safety school. In other words, an above-average high school student headed for college might have to make a choice among a handful of quite different options.

Let’s put the financial aspects of this decision aside for a minute because there is plenty of time to worry about that. Let’s look first at your child’s options in terms of the selectivity of the colleges. Let me start with the conclusion, and it’s the same conclusion we offered last week to parents of average high school students: Your child should go to the most selective school that accepted him or her. If you have an above-average high school student on your hands, you will hopefully agree with that conclusion and so will your child. After all, this is what your child has worked for throughout the high school years.

And yet, I had a parent say to me last weekend, “We are thinking that a public state university will be good enough for her undergraduate years. She wants to go to medical school, and sending her to a great university will be more important then.” “Really,” I said. “Then what was killing herself to earn that 4.3 GPA all about? And what if she changes her mind and does not pursue medical school? Now she has missed her chance to go the best college that would take her.”

As we said last week, apart from the undeniable prestige of attending a highly selective college, we have said and shown in previous episodes that graduation rates are higher at academically better colleges. In other words, your child is more likely to finish a degree if he or she attends a highly selective college, and your child is more likely to finish that degree in four years. And, in the long run, getting out on time saves money—sometimes tens of thousands of dollars.

Your child’s choice of a college will indeed affect his or her future—not just four years from now at graduation, but probably a whole lot longer in terms of the classmates your child will have and friends your child will make and where they will all end up working many years from now.

Back in Episode 59, Marie and I talked about an excellent new report from the Jack Kent Cooke Foundation, entitled True Merit: Ensuring Our Brightest Students Have Access to Our Best Colleges and Universities. When Harold Levy visited with us in Episode 67, we talked about the report again, including some of the statistics that we found shocking. Here is one I cannot get over:

  • 49 percent of corporate industry leaders and 50 percent of government leaders graduated from the same 12 selective colleges and universities.

Fortunately or unfortunately, that’s why your child should go to the most selective college that accepted him or her. Going to college really matters, and your choice of a college really matters, too.

You might want to go back to your deal breakers in choosing a college for your child—whether you picked those using our book (How To Find the Right College: A Workbook for Parents of High School Students) or using our discussion of them way back in Episodes 9 and 10. But I am saying here that the selectivity of the college be moved to the top of your list of factors to consider when making this perhaps life-changing decision. Your child’s great academic record and hard work deserve nothing less.

By the way, the most selective college your child was accepted to could be your state’s flagship university or another state’s flagship university. As we have said many times, there is no prestige in attending a private college that is not as good as a great public university. For a list of great flagship universities, go back and listen or re-listen to the nationwide virtual tour we took you all on in Episodes 27–53 or look at any number of popular lists that rank public institutions. You will see the same names come up over and over again, including these: the University of California, Berkeley; the University of Michigan; the University of Virginia; the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill; the College of William and Mary; and the University of California, Los Angeles. And there are quite a few more. If your child got into one of them, that is worth thinking really hard about.

And let me add one note about community colleges. If your child is an above-average student in high school, I don’t think that a community college is likely to be his or her best choice. We said the same thing last week about average students. We understand that there might be financial reasons to attend a community college. We understand that there might be family reasons to keep a child close to home and within commuting distance and that a community college might fit those circumstances very nicely. Nonetheless, as we have said several times, the transfer rate of students from community colleges to four-year colleges to earn bachelor’s degrees is astoundingly low (The Hechinger Report, “Volunteer ‘Pushy Moms’ help community college students transfer to four-year schools,” February 8, 2016, online):

According to a recent report from Teachers College, Columbia University, 80 percent of entering community college students say they intend to earn a bachelor’s degree, but only about a quarter actually make the transfer and 17 percent eventually get the degree. (quoted from the article).

Certainly, above-average high school students headed for college would have a better chance of making that transfer and getting that four-year degree than high school students who went to a community college because their grades were not high enough to get them into a four-year college. But I still do believe that a community college is not the optimal choice for an above-average high school student.

3. Your Choice for Your Child

Here’s a question we asked and answered last week: What if your child has just been accepted by the college that you really want him or her to attend, but that college is not your child’s first or even second or even third choice? Who wins?

I am simply going to refer you to last week’s episode, because this problem is the same regardless of whether your child was an above-average, average, or below-average high school student. My answer was simply this: As a parent, I wish you could win, but I don’t think you can win without convincing your child to come over to your side.

Your child is the one who is going to have to do the work and be happy about doing it. You aren’t. By the way, for all of you parents who have younger children coming up through high school and just starting the college process, here is the lesson to learn: Don’t let your child apply to colleges you don’t want them to attend. It’s as simple as that. If you are satisfied, even if not thrilled, with every college on your child’s application list, then you will be satisfied with whichever one is your child’s final choice.

4. What About the Cost?

So, now let’s talk about money. One of the most frustrating conversations I have is with parents who are just waiting to see which college gives their child the best financial deal. But what if that is not the best choice for the child? What if your above-average student gets into several highly selective private colleges that anyone would be thrilled to attend, but the best financial deal is from a satisfactory, but not a great, public college in your home state?

Well, here is my super-unpopular advice: Do what it takes to send your child to the best college that will take him or her. Why? Because the best possible college education is something worth investing in—even if that means loans your child and/or you take. And because taking out loans is scary for many reasons, we want to make sure that your child is in a college that he or she will be happy in and will actually graduate from in four years. That’s part of the deal with your child. We are going to do an episode about finances in a couple of weeks, but it won’t really solve this problem for you. I wish it could.

5. Next Steps

So, here is what I said last week. Call me and tell me what your child’s choices are and what your circumstances are. I will give you my thoughts on what might be the best choice from the college options your child has. It’s just our thank-you for listening. What could be more important for your family than making the right college decision now?

Learn more in previous episodes…

  • Episode 9: What Are Some of the Decisive Factors in Putting Colleges on Your List?
  • Episode 10: What Are Some More of the Decisive Factors in Putting Colleges on Your List?
  • Episode 40: Colleges in the Far West Region, Part II
  • Episode 59: What’s Happening to Low-Income Smart Kids?
  • Episode 67: A Candid Interview with Harold Levy on College Access, Admissions, Counseling, and Scholarships!
  • Series 4: Looking At Colleges Outside Your Comfort Zone (also known as the virtual tour of colleges)

Ask your questions or share your feedback by…

  • Leaving a comment here on the show notes for this episode
  • Calling us at (516) 900-6922 to record a question on our USACollegeChat voicemail if you want us to answer your question live on our podcast

Connect with us through…

Episode 54: Should “Elite” Be Getting a New Definition?

Should "Elite" Be Getting a New Defition? on NYCollegeChat podcast Series 5: Higher Education in the News #collegeaccess

Listen to the episode in the player, download it here, or subscribe on iTunes, Stitcher, or TuneIn.

For the past several months, it seems that we have been reading and hearing more and more about higher education in the news—both in publications for the general public and in publications geared for professional educators. We thought that, for our fifth series at NYCollegeChat, we would devote some weeks to looking at news stories that are intriguing and/or distressing about specific colleges and higher education generally—about students, professors, curricula, admissions, and more.

Why is this important to parents of high school students? Because you should be aware of both great and not-so-great things going on in colleges and about how they might impact your own child’s education. That is true whether you have children in college now or children going in the next several years. Some of the stories might have an immediate application to your life, and others might take longer to become important to you. Either way, we think these are things parents should know and perhaps act on.

1. Michael Crow’s Arresting Statement

Some weeks ago, I read the following arresting statement from Michael Crow, the president of Arizona State University, a public university with its main campus in Tempe:

We’re enrolling more students and admitting anyone who’s qualified. Those elite schools just don’t get it.

Whoa! Although Marie and I are the products of what most people would call elite private colleges and universities, we have spent a fair amount of our professional careers trying to improve college access for students who might otherwise not have had an opportunity to attend college, and sometimes we have worked with what most people would call less elite institutions to figure out how they can attract and serve those students. President Crow’s statement about college access for more students—indeed any qualified student—sounded good to me.

2. Some Facts About ASU

Our regular listeners might recall that we discussed Arizona State University (commonly referred to ASU) during our nationwide virtual tour of colleges, which ended two weeks ago. Let me recap what we said in Episode 37, when we looked at public universities in the Southwest region of our country.

ASU serves about 50,000 undergraduate, graduate, and professional students in Tempe, about 40,000 of whom are undergraduates. That’s a massive campus. Only about 60 percent of ASU students are Arizona residents (which is low compared to a lot of public universities), and a truly impressive approximately 40 percent are first-generation college students.

President Crow, who came to ASU in 2002, has made a successful effort to increase enrollment, especially of Hispanic and black students, and has made it possible for more low-income students to attend ASU by increasing ASU-supplied financial aid to them. Furthermore, he works hard at providing whatever extra help low-income minority students need in order to graduate. President Crow has also increased the number of out-of-state students (especially from California), who pay about double what state residents pay in tuition (about $22,000 compared to state residents’ $10,000). He encourages innovation among his administrators and is moving forward in using technology to get students through courses faster and more conveniently. (And, as I said back in Episode 37, I have to believe that he is even more dynamic than this paragraph makes him sound.)

Founded as a territorial school in 1885, ASU is now a university known for its Innovation Challenge competitions, a Startup School and a Startup Accelerator for new ventures, an Entrepreneurship Outreach Network, and the Furnace Technology Transfer Accelerator. ASU offers nine undergraduate, graduate, and professional colleges and schools on the Tempe campus, including the nation’s first School of Sustainability, established in 2006, with 99 percent of that School’s bachelor’s degree graduates currently employed or pursuing graduate degrees. And, in the midst of all that, it offers nine men’s and 12 women’s Sun Devils sports teams and more than 1,000 student organizations.

Now, let me say that ASU is also known for its online programs. As we have said in other episodes, Marie and I are reluctant to recommend placing freshmen in online programs because it takes a very self-disciplined and highly motivated student to succeed in online study, and we fear that many freshmen are not quite up to the task. However, there is certainly innovative cutting edge work being done in providing online education, and ASU’s offerings are impressive.

3. Michael Crow’s Article

So, on October 28 on LinkedIn Pulse, President Crow posted an article entitled “It’s Time to Rethink What ‘Elite’ Should Mean.” As I considered both his values and his success at ASU, I hurried to read it. I would like to read a good deal of it to you—because he said it better than I could and so that you can consider whether he is right. President Crow begins:


“All across the country, newly minted college students have settled into their campuses. . . .
“Some of these undergraduates may take particular delight in having landed a spot at one of America’s prestigious, highly selective schools—and rightfully so. The combination of a widely admired pedigree and academic excellence positions them for success.
“But what if our valuation of these exclusive clubs has been wrongly applied? What if we turn this thinking on its head and judge our schools not by the number of students that they turn away but by their ability to grant access and ensure student success?” (excerpted and quoted from the article)

“Wow,” I thought to myself. President Crow’s proposition really does turn our traditional thinking about excellence in higher education on its head. What if the word “elite” should be reserved for colleges that can take more students as well as more traditionally underrepresented students (like first-generation college-goers and low-income students and students of color) and get them through college successfully? How great must those professors be?

It reminds me of something I used to say to the teachers at the high school that Marie and I helped to co-found in New York City. Though it was an Early College high school, our students were no better academically than average urban kids—and often worse. Sometimes our teachers would get offers to go teach at one of New York City’s elite public high schools—the kind that kids had to take an admissions test to get into and the kind that was, therefore, filled with really bright kids. I would say to our teachers, “Sure, you can go teach there. You will be great. So would any teacher. Those kids are already great. They hardly need you. Why don’t you stay here and be great for kids that need you more?” I have to wonder whether President Crow ever said something just like that to his professors.

President Crow continued in his article:

“Every year ‘elite’ colleges and universities select a tiny fraction of the thousands and thousands of smart, talented and capable students who apply. These institutions then show up on highly touted rankings of the most selective schools in the country, as if a razor-thin acceptance rate was in and of itself a sign of achievement and a model of success.
“Today less than one percent of the nation’s undergraduates attend the top 50 liberal arts colleges and leading Ivy League schools. At the same time, many of our top-tier public universities are becoming increasingly selective. That means more and more qualified applicants are being denied access to world-class education.” (quoted from the article)

Elite colleges are just like elite high schools in New York City. They take in great students and then take credit for being great. And they are great in many other ways, but don’t forget that the students are still great when they arrive. Let’s think about that “less than one percent” President Crow referenced. Hardly any kids can go to the traditionally most elite private colleges and universities we have. And, what’s worse, our nation’s great public flagship universities are getting more and more selective. We know because we looked at the average high school GPAs of incoming freshmen when we did our virtual college tour. I have to tell you that we were shocked. Our regular listeners will recall how high those average GPAs were—and not only at the public flagship universities that we know are the most highly respected academically, like the University of Virginia (4.23 average GPA), the University of California, Berkeley (4.19 average GPA), or the University of Michigan (3.82 average GPA). Granted, those GPAs are averages, so some kids did not score that high; but, some kids scored even higher! These figures would support President Crow’s premise that “more and more qualified applicants are being denied access to world-class education”—that is, kids who have solid GPAs, but not stellar GPAs. Qualified isn’t good enough. President Crow sums up the situation for these otherwise qualified students:

“This represents a missed opportunity for them and a problem for us all.” (quoted from the article)

How is it “a problem for us all”? President Crow lays out a persuasive argument about that. He explains it this way:


“Higher education is critical to driving innovation and increasing our nation’s economic competitiveness. By educating larger and increasingly diverse segments of our population at the highest levels, we expand our ability to succeed in an increasingly global knowledge economy.

“This could not be more important: In the next three years, the U.S. is expected to face a shortage of 3 million highly educated college graduates, a gap projected to grow to 16 million by 2025, according to a Lumina Foundation report. Not only are poverty rates for Americans 25 years or older with no college education triple those with at least a bachelor’s degree, only 5 percent of graduates of public research universities come from families in the bottom fifth of income levels.
“In short, the current system is stacked against those who come from the wrong zip code, a reality that is increasingly troubling as our minority populations grow.” (quoted from the article)

So, what is the solution to the problem? Well, as you might have figured out, President Crow believes that it is what he has been doing at ASU. Here is what he says:


“I firmly believe that expanding access to higher education is a national imperative. At Arizona State University, we are admitting every qualified Arizona student (in addition to a growing population of qualified out-of-state and international students). This is something that schools like Berkeley and Michigan used to do back in the 1950s, but don’t anymore.

“Expanding enrollment need not undermine quality…. We saw our four-year graduation rates increase nearly 20 percentage points between 2002 and 2010….” (excerpted and quoted from the article)

 

How did President Crow and his faculty do that? Well, they probably did a hundred things, but they included, according to President Crow, “expanding the number of multidisciplinary degrees and programs to more closely link our students’ experiences with the needs of the real world that awaits them after graduation” (quoted from the article). As we did our virtual college tour, Marie and I have been seeing a fair number of college websites hyping their interdisciplinary/crossdisciplinary/multidisciplinary programs. There is quite a variety in those programs—like ones built around sustainability or environmentalism or “area studies” focusing on different parts of the world or different ethnicities. These programs bring together courses from a variety of disciplines—like various sciences, social sciences, and engineering or like social sciences, history, languages and literature, and the arts. Why? Because much of the real world of work does not function in tight compartments of specific disciplines or subject fields, but rather will require students to know something about and be able to think across subject fields, just as President Crow says.

At the end of his article, President Crow calls for “expanding our notion of what ‘elite’ really means” (quoted from the article). I’ve been thinking hard about that. Maybe he is right—that “elite” colleges should be those that do a great job of educating students and graduating students rather than just colleges that take in the best students to begin with. Clearly, our traditional elite colleges, in fact, do a great job of educating students and graduating students, and I’m okay with letting those colleges still be “elite.” But let’s seriously think about applying that adjective to the other ones, too—the colleges that do a great job educating all the rest of the students, especially the colleges that work diligently with students who started out at a disadvantage because of their race or ethnicity or their parents’ incomes or their poor elementary and secondary schools.

So, what does that mean for you, parents, as you look over the colleges that your child has just applied to or is about to apply to? It might mean that you should see past the traditional idea of a great college—an “elite” college—and broaden your idea of an elite college to include other colleges that are trying new approaches and working with new types of college students and doing a great job of educating them. Maybe that will actually make the application process more interesting and put less pressure on both you and your child.

Listen to the podcast to find out about…

  • Why taking online courses at ASU might be better than taking them somewhere else
  • Why colleges with holistic admissions processes might help your teenager
  • Why you and your teenager must consider colleges outside your region of the country

Check out these higher education institutions and organizations we mention…

Outside of New York State

Learn more about these topics in previous episodes…

Ask your questions or share your feedback by…

  • Leaving a comment on the show notes for this episode at http://usacollegechat.org/episode54
  • Calling us at (516) 900-NYCC to record a question on our NYCollegeChat voicemail if you want us to answer your question live on our podcast
  • Emailing us at paul@policystudies.org to ask a question if you want us to answer it privately

Connect with us through…

Listen to the episode in the player, download it here, or subscribe on iTunes, Stitcher, or TuneIn.