Episode 55: The Liberal Arts Debate

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As we said last week when we kicked off Series 5, it seems to me that we have been reading and hearing a lot about higher education in the news. So we are going to dedicate some weeks to looking at news stories that are inspiring, upsetting, or just plain surprising—either about specific colleges or about higher education more generally.

Episode 55: The Liberal Arts Debate on NYCollegeChat podcast http://usacollegechat.org/episode55 Listen on iTunes, Stitcher, TuneIn

Some of the stories might immediately influence your teenager’s decisions about where to apply or later about where to attend, and other stories might take longer to impact your family. Either way, we think these are things parents should know and even act on.

Today’s topic is the liberal arts. While some parents believe that their teenagers should major in a field that leads directly to a job after college graduation rather than in the liberal arts, some colleges—including some unexpected ones— are stepping forward to praise the value of studying the liberal arts.

Let’s start by saying that studying the “liberal arts” means that students take courses in a variety of academic subjects, typically including literature, history, mathematics, fine arts, philosophy, foreign languages, biological and/or physical sciences (also called the natural sciences), and one or more of the social sciences, like psychology, sociology, or anthropology. Sometimes these subjects as a group are also called the “liberal arts and sciences” or just “arts and sciences” or “humanities and sciences.”

Our new book (that’s How To Find the Right College: A Workbook for Parents of High School Students, available electronically and in print at Amazon.com) talks about choosing liberal arts study vs. technical study for a whole chapter. We explain the debate and give the pros and cons for having a student study or major in one or the other. So we won’t repeat all of that reasoning here.

However, before we talk about an article on this topic that I read in The Hechinger Report last October, I want to say in the interest of full disclosure that both Marie and I took the liberal arts route for our undergraduate degrees—mine in English literature and Marie’s in sociology. So, it is possible that we are a bit biased in favor of having a liberal arts foundation. In Marie’s case, she never would have known that the field of sociology existed had it not been for the distribution requirements mandated by her traditional liberal arts college, Barnard. All three of my own children were gently guided in the past 10 years—both by their father and me and by their own colleges’ distribution requirements—into getting a liberal arts grounding first, before they went on to study for quite specialized bachelor’s degrees (in music performance, in visual arts and media, and in dance). All of us would take the liberal arts route again if we had it to do over. But that’s enough about us.

1. Two Unexpected Cases

In his article “The surprising institutions that refuse to drop the liberal arts,” Jon Marcus talks about two institutions that, by their very names, would appear to come down strongly on the side of technical study at the expense of liberal arts study. They are the United States Military Academy (commonly referred to as West Point) and the Culinary Institute of America—both located on the Hudson River a bit north of New York City. One produces soldiers, and one produces chefs—albeit some of the best soldiers and some of the best chefs anywhere.

Interestingly enough, however, West Point cadets choose from 40 academic majors that cover a broad array of disciplines—including American politics; art, philosophy and literature; foreign languages; history; sociology; and psychology; as well as management and the engineering and sciences you might expect. There are a lot of traditional liberal arts choices in that list. The Hechinger Report article quotes Brigadier General Timothy Trainor, the academic dean at West Point, on this subject:

It’s important to develop in young people the ability to think broadly, to operate in the context of other societies and become agile and adaptive thinkers. What you’re trying to do is teach them to deal with complexity, diversity, and change. They’re having to deal with people from other cultures. They have to think very intuitively to solve problems on the ground. (quoted from the article)

It is this critical thinking, problem solving, analysis, judgment, dealing with consequences, cultural sensitivity, and the sociology of their interactions with others that the proponents of the liberal arts claim can be taught most effectively through courses in liberal arts fields of study. And West Point seems to agree.

So does Michael Sperling, vice president for academic affairs at the private, nonprofit Culinary Institute of America, who is quoted in the article as saying this:

There’s a certain level of anti-intellectualism in the popular culture that inappropriately sees the pursuit of core disciplines as frivolous. And that’s unfortunate, because the kind of things you learn in philosophy courses and history courses deepens your ability to act in the world. (quoted from the article)

I think that “frivolous” is exactly the word that some parents would use to describe liberal arts study, and I hope that those parents are rethinking that position now.

Ted Russin, associate dean for culinary science, earned his degree in philosophy. He is quoted in the article as saying that Culinary Institute of America students “would definitely have technical skills. They could make a croissant and it would be exquisite. But there’s a difference between knowing how to do something and understanding what’s happening.” The bigger and broader understanding of what’s happening is what, some experts claim, the liberal arts provide.

2. Other Cases

Those of you who are faithful listeners to NYCollegeChat are likely to recall other higher education institutions we have talked about during our virtual college tour over the last few months—institutions that required more or offered more liberal arts courses and majors than you might have expected.

Let’s look at a few of our other military academies. We talked about the United States Naval Academy (commonly referred to as Annapolis). Young men and women at Annapolis graduate with Bachelor of Science degrees in a choice of about 25 majors—mostly in science, technology, engineering, and mathematics related to their future careers. But they can major instead in Arabic, Chinese, economics, English, history, or political science (and minor in other foreign languages).

We talked about the U.S. Coast Guard Academy, located in Connecticut, where seven of 24 core curriculum courses are from its Humanities Department, so cadets are well versed in the liberal arts when they graduate. Cadets may major in government (about 25 percent typically do) in addition to marine and environmental sciences and majors more directly related to maritime studies.

We talked about the Military College of South Carolina, The Citadel. The Citadel offers 20 undergraduate majors—with mandatory leadership and ethics studies—in the schools of business, education, engineering, science and mathematics, and humanities and social sciences.

Let’s look at some arts institutions. We talked about the Curtis Institute of Music and the University of the Arts in Philadelphia and the Rhode Island School of Design, where both the arts and the liberal arts are required parts of the curricula.

We talked about Berklee College of Music in Boston, which offers 12 different undergraduate music-related majors. But all Berklee students take both a core music curriculum (e.g., ear training, arranging, harmony) and a core liberal arts curriculum in the humanities, social sciences, and natural sciences and mathematics.

We talked about one of our nation’s finest art colleges: the School of the Art Institute of Chicago (SAIC), located adjacent to the world-famous art museum in downtown Chicago. SAIC offers a wide variety of art and design majors—along with a full array of liberal arts courses.

We talked about Savannah College of Art and Design (SCAD), located in one of our nation’s prettiest towns. SCAD offers more than 40 undergraduate and graduate majors related to the arts and design, including writing. But, as part of the general education course requirements for undergraduates, students take liberal arts courses in the humanities and fine arts, natural sciences and mathematics, social and behavioral sciences, written and oral communication, and computer literacy.

Let’s look at a couple of Massachusetts colleges, which are known primarily as business colleges. We talked about Babson College, where at least half of students’ courses are in the liberal arts, including the study of a language that is useful in business dealings today—perhaps a bit surprising for a business-focused institution.

We talked about Bentley College, which offers its undergraduates 23 majors in 11 business fields and five arts and sciences disciplines. In fact, about 20 percent of undergraduates double major in business and Bentley’s Liberal Studies Major (which has eight interdisciplinary concentrations).

Let’s look at some high-tech institutions. We talked about Stevens Institute of Technology in Hoboken, New Jersey, which comprises schools of Engineering and Science, Business, and Systems and Enterprises—as well as a College of Arts and Letters, where students can major in art, music, literature and communications, philosophy, history, and the social sciences and “benefit from pursuing these disciplines charged by the latest advances in technology, science, and innovation and the fundamental idea that science and technology can be used as intellectual tools of inquiry” (quoted from the website).

We talked about the Georgia Institute of Technology (commonly known as Georgia Tech), located in Atlanta. Georgia Tech provides a “focused, technologically based education” (taken from the website) and offers degrees in six colleges—Architecture, Computing, Engineering, Sciences, Business, and Liberal Arts—with “more than 100 centers focused on interdisciplinary research that consistently contribute vital research and innovation to American government, industry, and business” (taken from the website).

We talked about Worcester Polytechnic Institute (WPI) in Massachusetts, which offers 12 types of engineering and 50 undergraduate and graduate degree programs in science, technology, management, the social sciences, and the humanities and arts. A Humanities and Arts requirement ensures that WPI students are well rounded; it consists of six courses of the student’s choosing, including courses from at least two different liberal arts disciplines, or a six-course sequence in Spanish, German, or Chinese—along with a final project.

We talked about the Colorado School of Mines, a highly selective and highly specialized engineering college. In addition to its applied science and mathematics majors, its geoscience and resource engineering majors, and a variety of other engineering majors, Mines requires a core curriculum, which includes humanities and social sciences courses.

We talked about the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT), with its schools of Architecture and Planning, Engineering, Management, Science, and—last, but not least—the School of Humanities, Arts, and Social Sciences. While we think of MIT as turning out first-rate engineers and scientists, students can also major in subjects in the School of Humanities, Arts, and Social Sciences. By the way, all undergraduates at MIT take eight courses in the School of Humanities, Arts, and Social Sciences (about 25 percent of their undergraduate program), so they truly become balanced students and informed citizens.

We talked about Columbia University’s well-known undergraduate Core Curriculum for Columbia College, its undergraduate liberal arts college. The Core Curriculum includes courses in literature, writing, art, music, civilization, science, and more. We said that the common texts that students read and discuss is like a greatest-hits list. But here is the remarkable statement from the website of Columbia’s Fu Foundation School of Engineering and Applied Science:

Engineering has been called the newest liberal art. At Columbia Engineering, students not only study science and mathematics and gain technical skills but also study literature, philosophy, art history, music theory, and major civilizations through the Core Curriculum in the humanities. (quoted from the website)

So, it is plain to see that specialized institutions—including institutions specializing in technical study—which seem unlikely champions of the liberal arts, are often, in fact, champions of the liberal arts.

3. What Some States Are Doing

Some states, however, have a different perspective. When dealing with financial cutbacks while trying to fund large public universities with taxpayers’ dollars, some states have questioned the value of the liberal arts—at least, some liberal arts fields anyway. Here are two ideas that have been proposed at the state level:

  • Charge students more tuition for liberal arts majors because the state does not believe that its economy needs them as much as it needs STEM (science, technology, engineering, and math) majors and, thus, does not want to subsidize them to the same degree.
  • Encourage students who want to major in liberal arts fields to go to a private college to major in them and pay for that themselves—again, so the state does not have to subsidize those majors with public funds.

Some states have had their public universities cut back on some arts majors and some foreign language majors—not entire departments necessarily, but perhaps one language or one of the arts. Interestingly enough, these are the same two cuts that often get made at the high school level when public funds are tight. (Read Regina’s related blog post for more information.)

Maybe these states should have listened to what some colleges are saying—oh, and what employers are saying.

4. What Employers Are Saying

According to a survey by the Association of American Colleges and Universities, about 75 percent of the 318 corporate leaders surveyed “want more emphasis on critical thinking, problem-solving, written and oral communication, and applied knowledge . . . exactly the kinds of skills advocates for the liberal arts say they teach. Ninety-three percent agree that ‘a demonstrated capacity to think critically, communicate clearly, and solve complex problems’ is more important than a job candidate’s undergraduate major” (quoted from the article).

I am taking that to mean that a good job applicant who has an undergraduate liberal arts degree, who can speak and write and think and solve problems well, could be just as attractive to a corporation as a good job applicant who has an undergraduate business degree. So, parents, that is a viewpoint worth considering when it comes time for your teenager to choose a major for real as a college sophomore or junior or even to declare a tentative one on a college application.

5. A Few Practical Considerations

Let’s conclude with a few practical considerations. Marie and I have a preference for liberal arts study unless a student is absolutely dead certain that a technical field is his or her preference. That preference would have to be based on a long-time interest in that field, good grades in high school subjects that prepare a student for that field, discussions with people who work in that field, and some kind of internship or summer work experience in that field. All too often kids have an idea of a career they want to pursue without having any practical information about what that career is like in the real world.

And here’s one important thing to remember: Credits in liberal arts college courses (especially those taken in the first year of college) can be transferred far more easily among degree programs and even among colleges than credits in technical courses can. That means that a kid can change his or her mind after starting college (and many, many do) without losing too much time and, parents, too much of your money.

Listen to the podcast to find out about…

  • How all students get their vocational or technical education at some point in their lives
  • What other reasons some states have for not wanting to fund liberal arts studies
  • Whether foreign languages, a traditional liberal arts discipline, are actually a technical career skill

Check out these higher education institutions and organizations we mention…

In New York State

Outside of New York State

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Episode 50: Colleges in New York State—Part I

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In recent episodes, we have focused our virtual tour of colleges on the public and private higher education institutions in the Mid-Atlantic region: Maryland, Delaware, the District of Columbia, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania. As we explained then, we put off a look at colleges in New York (which is, of course, part of the Mid-Atlantic region) because we knew that it was the home state of many of our listeners, and we knew that they would be especially interested in it. It is possible that other listeners are also interested in New York State, perhaps because it has more four-year colleges than any other state—about 130.

Virtual tour of public colleges in New York State in NYCollegeChat podcast

Today, we will look at public four-year colleges in New York. They can be found in two massive systems of public higher education, two of the very biggest in the nation: The State University of New York and The City University of New York (located, of course, in the five boroughs of New York City). Plus, there are a couple of special additional public choices we will take a glance at.

And, as we say every time, no college—not even one in our home state—has asked us or paid us anything to include it. These are our own choices.

1. The State University of New York

Founded in 1948 with the consolidation of 29 existing higher education institutions, The State University of New York (commonly referred to as SUNY) is, in fact, the largest comprehensive university system in the U.S. Currently, SUNY comprises 64 institutions, almost half of which (30) are community colleges. Here is an interesting fact: “93 percent of New Yorkers live within 15 miles of a SUNY campus, and nearly 100 percent live within 30 miles” (quoted from the website). And here is another: “One out of three New York State high school graduates choose SUNY, and the total enrollment of nearly 463,000 full-time and part-time students represents 37 percent of New York State’s higher education student population” (quoted from the website).

Now, during our virtual tour, we have talked a fair amount about how New York State really doesn’t have a flagship university that high school students in the state are dying to attend—not in the same way as Texas or Ohio or Mississippi or North Carolina or lots of other states in the South and Midwest especially. But we have also talked a fair amount about how 70 percent or so of high school students stay in their home state for college. So, one of three New York high school students chooses a SUNY campus—and that doesn’t count those who choose a public City University of New York campus or a private college in the state.

Students can apply to most SUNY campuses by completing one online application and submitting all of their documents just once. SUNY advises students to apply by December 1 to ensure optimal financial aid, degree program choice, and campus housing.

Four University Centers. SUNY has four “university centers.” They are perhaps SUNY’s idea of four flagship-like campuses. The four are Stony Brook University on Long Island, Binghamton University in upstate New York, the University at Buffalo, and the University at Albany. I think that most New Yorkers would argue that Stony Brook and Binghamton are the two top universities in the SUNY system. So, let’s start with Stony Brook, which is located on a large rural-like campus in the far-out suburbs about 60 miles east of New York City, easily accessible by the reliable Long Island Rail Road.

Founded in 1957 to educate secondary school teachers of science and math, Stony Brook was directed by the State Board of Regents in 1960 to become an institution that would “stand with the finest in the country”—perhaps the Board of Regents’ idea of a flagship university. Today, it offers about 17,000 undergraduates and about 8,500 graduate and professional students 68 undergraduate degree programs and more than 140 graduate degree programs in its colleges and schools of arts and sciences, business, engineering and applied sciences, journalism (the only undergraduate school of journalism in a public New York university), marine and atmospheric sciences, social welfare, nursing, health technology and management, dental medicine, and medicine. It is well known and respected for its science, engineering, and medical programs, and it co-manages Brookhaven National Laboratory, a federal research laboratory. Stony Brook is one of the universities of choice for bright New York City students who are looking to attend a public college for financial reasons. About 25 percent of its undergraduates are Asian.

Stony Brook’s first-year students are assigned to one of six “Undergraduate Colleges,” which are organized around themes of interest to students: Arts, Culture, and Humanities; Global Studies; Human Development; Information and Technology Studies; Leadership and Service; and Science and Society. Students in each Undergraduate College receive “customized advising and support, special educational and social programs, and opportunities for close interaction with faculty and fellow students around themes of common interest. Both commuter and residential students are welcomed into College life. First-year resident members of each College are housed together in the same residential quadrangle.” (quoted from the website) With two freshman seminars and a host of educational and social activities, these Undergraduate Colleges help freshmen adjust to life at a university with 17,000 undergraduate students. Like other SUNY campuses, undergraduates are required to take a broad array of liberal arts and sciences courses to satisfy general education distribution requirements.

Like most major universities, Stony Brook offers a variety of study abroad opportunities and 20 varsity sports teams. And, of course, there are plenty of activities on campus, though my understanding is that some students who live on Long Island or in New York City go home on weekends.

Stony Brook’s incoming freshmen this fall posted average SAT scores in the mid-600s for mathematics and about 600 for critical reading and writing. Their average high school GPA was about a 3.8. Almost 90 percent of Stony Brook’s recent graduates are either employed or enrolled in graduate or professional school—a good record for a public university.

Binghamton University is in the relatively small upstate New York suburb of Vestal. Established in 1946 to serve the educational needs of World War II veterans, Binghamton was originally a branch of private Syracuse University and became a part of SUNY four years later. Today it offers about 13,500 undergraduates and about 3,500 graduate and professional students studies in seven schools and colleges: arts and sciences, community and public affairs, nursing, management, engineering and applied science, and education (graduate students only). A new graduate School of Pharmacy and Pharmaceutical Sciences will open in 2018.

About 20 percent of its undergraduates stay at Binghamton to earn a graduate degree. Almost 70 percent of undergraduates earn their degrees in the Harpur College of Arts and Sciences, the oldest college at Binghamton. Like Stony Brook, Binghamton has broad liberal arts and sciences general education requirements for its undergraduate students.

Binghamton fields 21 varsity sports teams and offers a lot of outdoor recreational activities in nearby state parks. It is one of 16 colleges to earn “the highest score on The Princeton Review’s annual ‘green rating’ for campus environmentally-related policies, practices and academic offerings” (quoted from the website).

Binghamton’s incoming freshmen last fall posted average SAT scores in the mid-600s for mathematics and just a bit lower for critical reading and writing. Their average high school GPA was about a 3.6.

If students prefer a more urban location, then either the University at Buffalo or the University at Albany might be preferable to Binghamton and Stony Brook. Undergraduate enrollment at Buffalo is the highest of the four university centers at about 20,000 students, while undergraduate enrollment at Albany is the lowest at about 13,000 students. So these are all substantial universities, which would seem really big to any freshman—albeit nothing close to the largest of the flagship universities we have talked about earlier in our virtual tour. Incoming freshman SAT scores are just a bit lower at Buffalo and Albany, which might put them in reach of more students.

In-state tuition and fees at the university centers run a remarkably reasonable $9,000 per year, with out-of-state tuition and fees at about $22,000 to $24,000.

Specialized Institutions. There are three specialized SUNY institutions worth a quick mention, even though they will likely be of interest only to a limited audience:

  • “The College of Environmental Science and Forestry (ESF) is . . . focused on the science, design, engineering and management of natural resources and the environment. [It] offers 23 undergraduate and 30 graduate degree programs . . . . Students study at the Syracuse campus and on 25,000 acres of property throughout New York State. ESF also offers numerous opportunities to study abroad. Career-related internships provide invaluable work experience and can often pave the way to permanent positions after graduation. ESF’s special relationship with neighboring Syracuse University provides ESF students with access to selected SU courses, student services and activities.” (excerpted and quoted from the SUNY website) ESF serves just about 1,700 undergraduate students.
  • “Founded in 1874, Maritime College [is the] oldest and largest maritime school in the country. . . .   [It] is located in historic Fort Schuyler, [the]Bronx. . . . Maritime offers undergraduate programs in engineering, naval architecture, marine transportation, maritime studies, marine environmental science and international transportation and trade. . . .       Maritime students may pursue a U.S. Coast Guard License. These students participate in Maritime’s structured Regiment of Cadets, as well as summer sea terms aboard the Empire State VI training ship. There is no military obligation for Maritime graduates unless they choose to participate in one of four ROTC programs. Graduates enjoy a nearly 100% career placement rate and earn some of the nation’s highest average starting salaries.” (excerpted and quoted from the SUNY website) Maritime serves just about 1,600 undergraduate students.
  • “The Fashion Institute of Technology (FIT) is . . . a renowned college of art and design, business and technology, with more than 40 degree programs. Majors span a wide range of fields, from photography and toy design to international trade and cosmetics and fragrance marketing.       Each major includes a full liberal arts education. A faculty of academics and working professionals integrates hands-on teaching with real-world expertise, and industry connections provide unrivaled internship and career opportunities.” (excerpted and quoted from the SUNY website)       FIT is located in the heart of Manhattan in New York City and serves about 9,500 undergraduate students.

Any of these three colleges could be the right choice for a student who is interested in these specialized fields of study. And, while we said that Maritime and Environmental Science and Forestry serve only about 1,600 to 1,700 undergraduates—making them quite small by SUNY standards—remember that we have talked about quite a few colleges, especially small private colleges, that are a lot smaller than that.

Two Comprehensive Colleges. When talking about the state public higher education systems in other states on our virtual tour, we have typically talked only about individual colleges that we thought were attractive enough to draw out-of-state students away from the public colleges in their own state in order to attend them. That is a high standard, I think. I am not sure that any of the many other SUNY campuses are sufficiently attractive to do that, but let us mention two that might be. Both are well known here in the southern part of the state and are certainly better known regionally than nationally: SUNY New Paltz and SUNY Purchase.

Founded in 1828 as the New Paltz Classical School (teaching Latin, Greek, reading, writing, and arithmetic to local children), SUNY New Paltz became a normal school for training teachers and was one of the founding institutions of the SUNY system. It is located in a small town about 90 minutes north of New York City in the picturesque Hudson River Valley, with lots of nearby outdoor activities that draw vacationers from all over. A popular campus that typically receives more than 14,000 applications for 1,100 slots, New Paltz admits freshmen that are good students, academically on par with the University at Albany. This fall, about 93 percent of New Paltz freshmen were New York residents.

New Paltz offers its approximately 6,500 undergraduates a choice of 105 majors across five schools/colleges: liberal arts and sciences (the largest of the schools/colleges), education, business, fine and performing arts, and science and engineering. As we have already said about SUNY campuses, undergraduates are required to complete a general education core, covering a broad array of arts and sciences fields. New Paltz undergraduates take about 12 to 14 courses, more in the arts than in the sciences. New Paltz also serves about 1,000 graduate students.

New Paltz fields 15 varsity sports teams and sponsors over 200 student organizations. It offers students a full-fledged campus life in what many people consider an idyllic setting.

SUNY Purchase (also known as Purchase College) is located just outside New York City in suburban Westchester County. It was founded in 1967 by Governor Nelson Rockefeller to “combine on one campus conservatory training in the visual and performing arts with programs in the liberal arts and sciences” (quoted from the website). Today, within its School of Liberal Arts and Sciences (where about 65 percent of Purchase students study), it has schools of film and media studies, humanities, and natural and social sciences. Within its School of the Arts (where about 35 percent of Purchase students study), it has a School of Art + Design and conservatories of dance, music, and theatre art (including its own dance company and its own theatre repertory company); it also offers a bachelor’s degree in arts management and a master’s degree in entrepreneurship in the arts. In total, Purchase offers about 47 bachelor’s degree majors—six of which are in music (one in production, two in composition, and three in performance)! These arts degree programs make Purchase a truly unique public opportunity for about 4,500 undergraduate students and just over 100 graduate students.

In addition to its dancers, Purchase fields 17 varsity sports teams. It offers a variety of special housing options, including freshman-year housing, conservatory floors, and residential learning communities built around themes (e.g., psychology and social justice, spirituality and society, leadership). Freshmen admitted to Purchase this fall had SAT subtest scores averaging in the mid-500s and a high school GPA of about a 3.1. So that puts it in range of just-above-average students. Of course, those students applying to the arts programs must meet audition or portfolio standards, too.

In-state tuition and fees at the comprehensive colleges run about $7,500 per year, with out-of-state costs at about $17,500—so, a bit lower than the university centers and, again, a great price.

Four Undergraduate Statutory Colleges. SUNY also has four colleges housed at two universities that are, otherwise, private. They are the New York State College of Ceramics at Alfred University and Cornell University’s School of Industrial and Labor Relations, College of Agriculture and Life Sciences, and College of Human Ecology (that is, three of Cornell’s seven undergraduate colleges/schools). Let’s take a quick look:

  • Since 1900, the NYS College of Ceramics at Alfred University has blended visual fine arts, design and the science of ceramics, glass and materials. It is . . . home to the School of Art & Design and the Inamori School of Engineering. These high quality, internationally known programs offer opportunities for small classes and individual attention at both the undergraduate and graduate levels. . . . The School of Art & Design, with BFA, BS (Art History) and MFA programs, works with internationally acclaimed artists in one of the nation’s finest art facilities. The Inamori School of Engineering, with BS, MS, and PhD programs, educates over one-third of all ceramic engineering graduates in the U.S. and is one of 10 centers for advanced research in New York.” (excerpted and quoted from the SUNY website) The College serves just about 600 undergraduates with these very special interests and talents.
  • Cornell’s “School of Industrial and Labor Relations is the only undergraduate school of its kind in the U.S. The ILR School has a unique program that uses the social sciences to examine the full range of ‘people’ issues faced in the workplace. ILR provides preparation for leadership positions in business, law, politics, social justice and public policy. The ILR curriculum provides a strong liberal arts foundation through classes in economics, sociology, psychology, history, law and statistics. From there, students can develop their special interests in a number of areas including management, law, human resources, dispute resolution, employee relations, labor economics, organizational behavior and international labor rights.” (quoted from the SUNY website) The ILR School serves just about 1,000 undergraduates.
  • Cornell’s “College of Agriculture and Life Sciences (CALS) . . . is the only college of agriculture and life sciences in the Ivy League and the second largest college at Cornell. The college is committed to research, education and outreach [and] . . . offers over 20 majors, all focusing on the four college priorities: Life Sciences, Applied Social Sciences, Environmental Sciences and Agriculture and Food. Undergraduates have the chance to use their skills and knowledge to answer some of the world’s most pressing social, economic and scientific challenges.” (excerpted and quoted from the SUNY website) The College serves about 3,500 undergraduates, who enjoy an enviable 7:1 student-to-faculty ratio.
  • Cornell’s “College of Human Ecology . . .       examines human life from a scientific, social and aesthetic perspective. By blending academic disciplines with a global point of view, students and faculty use their knowledge to explore and develop solutions to contemporary human issues. Students explore liberal arts disciplines including biology, chemistry, economics, psychology and sociology, and apply their knowledge in fields such as health, design, nutrition, public policy and marketing.       Students are prepared for medical, law or other graduate programs, and for careers in business, education, communications or other fields of health and human services.”       (excerpted and quoted from the SUNY website) The College serves about 1,250 undergraduates.

We will hear a bit more about Cornell next week when we turn to private colleges in New York State.

2. The City University of New York

Today’s extraordinary City University of New York (CUNY), with a total of 24 two-year, four-year, and graduate campuses serving over a quarter of a million degree students, began as the Free Academy, with about 200 students in 1849. It became The College of the City of New York in 1866. The all-female, free Normal College of the City of New York, which became Hunter College, was established in 1870. CUNY has a long and fascinating history, full of political battles and fights over free tuition and outreach to New York City’s many immigrant populations as they arrived decade after decade. The website notes that in “the post-World War I era when discrimination against Jews was common at Ivy League universities and other private educational institutions, many Jewish students and academics found their intellectual home at New York’s public colleges, where ethnicity, religion and national background barred no one” (quoted from the website). City College became known as the “Harvard of the Proletariat.” In 1961, CUNY was formed from the public college campuses that had sprung up to serve New York City’s growing population in all five boroughs.

The 11 four-year colleges, which cover all five boroughs, have their own histories and their own identities. Though most are best known in New York City, a few have enjoyed a somewhat wider reputation. High school students in New York City can generally get decent advice from high school counselors about their CUNY options (indeed, I believe that these are the higher education options that New York City high school counselors know best). But for those of you outside the City who are intrigued by life in the big city and who might be interested in taking a look at a CUNY college, here are four that you might consider:

  • The City College of New York (CCNY), located in upper Manhattan on a lovely campus with buildings designated as landmarks, is the flagship college of the CUNY system. Its founder, Townsend Harris, said this: “Open the doors to all. Let the children of the rich and the poor take their seats together and know of no distinction save that of industry, good conduct, and intellect” (1847). Today, it boasts schools of architecture, education, and engineering; humanities, arts, and science divisions; the Colin Powell School for Civic and Global Leadership; and the highly respected Sophie Davis School of Biomedical Education. CCNY enrolls about 13,000 undergraduate students and another approximately 3,000 graduate students.
  • Hunter College is located on the Upper East Side in Manhattan; it’s in a great part of town, but has no campus to speak of. It is CUNY’s largest college, with a total enrollment of about 23,000 students. In its six schools, Hunter offers liberal arts and sciences majors to its undergraduate and graduate students as well as professional programs in nursing, health professions, urban public health, education, and social work. Today, its students come from more than 150 countries and speak about 150 languages. Many are first-generation college-goers.
  • Baruch College, located on the site of the Free Academy in downtown Manhattan, is noted for its business programs. It is named for alumnus Bernard M. Baruch, financier and statesman. It offers its approximately 12,500 undergraduates a choice of 23 majors in its three schools: business, arts and sciences, and public affairs. Baruch also serves about 3,000 graduate students. Its students come from more than 120 countries and speak more than 110 languages.
  • Queens College, located on an attractive campus in a residential neighborhood of Flushing in the borough of Queens, is one of the larger CUNY colleges, serving more than 20,000 undergraduate and graduate students from more than 150 countries. Founded in 1937, it offers a broad and deep liberal arts and sciences curriculum with over 140 undergraduate and graduate majors in four divisions: education, mathematics and natural sciences, social sciences, and arts and humanities (including the Aaron Copland School of Music, which offers three music degrees). Queens graduates more teachers than any other college in the tri-state area, and more than half of Queens undergraduates go on to pursue graduate degrees.

This year’s freshman class at the four colleges we just profiled had average high school GPAs from 88 to 90 (on a 100-point scale) and average SAT composite scores in critical reading and mathematics from about 1160 to 1260.

CUNY’s prestigious Macaulay Honors College is a highly selective college that enrolls undergraduates on eight of the four-year CUNY campuses. Macaulay students take classes at their home campus, but also meet together at the Macaulay building in Manhattan for lectures and other activities. Macaulay students receive a full scholarship and a laptop. But there is an early December 1 deadline, so move quickly if you are interested. This year’s freshman class posted an average high school GPA of 94 (on a 100-point scale) and an average SAT composite score in critical reading and mathematics of about 1400.

Of course, students can join student organizations and play on varsity sports teams at CUNY colleges, though I think it is unlikely that students who are seriously committed to varsity athletics would make CUNY their first choice.

Students can apply to as many as six CUNY colleges with one application and one application fee (though some colleges and some special programs have supplemental requirements, such as additional essays). We believe that, for very good students, one or more of these four-year CUNY colleges can serve as a reasonable safety school during the college application process. We do not believe that it makes sense for very good students to apply to a less prestigious private college as a safety school when they would likely be better off academically and financially at one of the good CUNY four-year colleges.

The CUNY colleges are quite inexpensive for New York City residents and qualified New York State residents—from about $4,500 in tuition per year for a two-year CUNY campus to about $6,000 in tuition per year for a four-year CUNY campus.

3. Paying for College in New York State

When Marie and I attended the National Association for College Admission Counseling’s college fair in New York City last April, we spoke with Michael Turner from the New York State Higher Education Services Corporation, who recorded this information for NYCollegeChat. (Be sure to listen to it in our recorded episode.)

4. Military Service Academies

New York State is home to two of the five military service academies: the U.S. Military Academy (commonly referred to as West Point) and the U.S. Merchant Marine Academy (USMMA), located in King’s Point on Long Island. These are public institutions, of course, funded by the federal government. Students pay no tuition or room and board, though they do incur an obligation to serve after graduation, as we have discussed in other episodes.

Let’s look briefly at the USMMA, which I think we probably know less about:

[USMMA] educates and graduates licensed Merchant Marine officers of exemplary character who serve America’s marine transportation and defense needs in peace and war. With 95 percent of the world’s products transported over water, these leaders are vital to the effective operation of our merchant fleet for both commercial and military transport during war and peace….

Known for its rigorous academic program, USMMA requires more credit hours for a baccalaureate degree than any other Federal service academy.  This challenging coursework is augmented by the Academy’s Sea year experience, which affords midshipmen the opportunity to acquire hands-on, real-world experiences aboard working commercial vessels sailing to ports around the world.  Midshipmen who master this demanding curriculum earn a unique combination of credentials:

A highly regarded Bachelor of Science degree

A U.S. Coast Guard license

An officer’s commission in the U.S. Armed Forces

For this reason, Academy graduates are highly sought after as officers in the military and the merchant marine.  This merchant fleet of efficient and productive commercial ships owned by U.S. companies and registered and operated under the American flag, forms an essential part of our domestic and international transportation system….

All graduates have a service obligation upon graduation…

Five years in the United States maritime industry, with eight years of service as an officer in any reserve unit of the armed forces

Or five years active duty in any of the nation’s armed forces.

In time of war or national emergency, the U.S. Merchant Marine becomes vital to national security as a ‘fourth arm of defense.’ Our merchant ships bear the brunt of delivering military troops, supplies and equipment overseas to our forces and allies, operating as an auxiliary unit to the Navy. (quoted from the website)

Students at the USMMA take a core curriculum of liberal arts and sciences courses before choosing one of five majors in marine transportation and marine engineering.

To be eligible to join the approximately 950 young men and women at the USMMA, students must have a minimum SAT score of 560 on both the critical reading and mathematics subtests and must have taken an academically rigorous high school program. Students must also secure a nomination from a member of the U.S. Senate or House of Representatives from his or her home state. Such nominations should be sought ideally in May of the junior year of high school.

West Point was founded in 1802 and is located just north of New York City on the Hudson River. Its cadets choose from 40 academic majors that cover a broad array of disciplines—including American politics; art, philosophy and literature; foreign languages; history; sociology; management; and psychology; as well as the engineering and sciences you might expect. Throughout their four years, cadets take physical education courses (with their grades averaged into their GPAs) and are required to participate in competitive sports. And then there are the military skills:

“The heart of the military training takes place during the summer. The basic Soldier skills of rifle marksmanship, land navigation, and close combat are but the underpinnings of each cadet’s initial training the first summer; by graduation every cadet has participated in small-unit leadership training; attended military schools such as Airborne and Air Assault; served as senior leadership to junior cadets’ summer training; and interned . . . in active duty units across the globe.” (quoted from the website)

Average SAT scores of the incoming class of cadets were 608 in writing, 627 in critical reading, and 645 in mathematics. About 70 percent ranked in the top fifth of their high school graduating class. Of the approximately 4,000 high school students who were nominated by their Congressional representative, their U.S. Senator, or the Vice President of the U.S., only about 1,250 were accepted.

Here is what a West Point graduate can expect:

“Upon graduation, you will be commissioned as a second lieutenant in the Army and serve for five years on active duty (if you choose to depart the Army after five years, you will be required to serve three years in the Inactive Ready Reserve (IRR)). During your senior year, you’ll find out which specialized field, or “branch,” you will enter. Both the needs of the Army and your preferences will be considered.

In your first year after graduation, you’ll attend a Basic Officer Leader Course for general information and training. Upon its successful completion, you then take branch-specific courses to become competent in the technical aspects of your specialty.

Next, you’ll be sent to an Army unit where you will build experience in troop command for the next three years. You might lead a Military Police unit, a small artillery fire support team, or a Military Intelligence unit, for example.” (quoted from the website)

That is quite a bit of service—but also quite a bit of education and training. All free.

Listen to the podcast to find out about…

  • Streamlined applications processes for SUNY and CUNY colleges
  • Guaranteed admission to SUNY and CUNY colleges
  • New York State funds available for covering New York State college costs

Check out these higher education institutions and organizations we mention…

In New York State

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Episode 7: Focus on New York

We’re continuing our series on understanding the world of college this week by focusing on the many wonderful opportunities right here in New York! Episode show notes are available at http://usacollegechat.org/7

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Subscribing to NYCollegeChat on iTunes, Spreaker, Stitcher, or TuneIn!
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Ask your questions or share your feedback by…
Calling our hotline at 516-900-NYCC
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We’re continuing our series on understanding the world of college this week by focusing on the many wonderful opportunities right here in New York!

NYCollegeChat is now available on iTunes, Spreaker, Stitcher, and TuneIn!

NYCollegeChat episode 7 focuses on colleges and universities in New York State

1. Starting with New York City

For many students from around the world, New York City is the place to be. It is huge and exciting and trendy and diverse. It offers something for everyone: well-known private universities (like New York University), great medical schools and law schools and fine arts schools and business schools, a famous Ivy League university (Columbia) and two graduate campuses of a second Ivy League university (Cornell), Catholic and Jewish colleges and universities (like Fordham University, St. John’s UniversityManhattan CollegeYeshiva University, and Touro College and University System), proprietary schools, and an extraordinary public City University of New York (CUNY) with a total of 24 two-year and four-year and graduate campuses serving over a quarter of a million degree students.

Almost any student already living in New York City or moving to New York City can find an appropriate type of institution for postsecondary study, which will offer whatever major course of study a student can imagine. Because so many students nationwide go to college close to home, New York City high school students are particularly fortunate to live in a city where so many options are at their fingertips.

The CUNY colleges are public and, therefore, relatively inexpensive for New York City residents and qualified New York State residents who are commuting to a campus—from about $4,500 in tuition for a two-year CUNY campus to about $6,000 in tuition for a four-year CUNY campus. Some of the private universities in New York City will cost a student $60,000 a year for tuition and dormitory living, though many families believe those universities are worth it.

2. Looking at New York State

Looking outside New York City, New York State offers an even bigger array of collegiate institutions: two of the five U.S. military service academies (West Point and the Merchant Marine Academy), another Ivy League university (Cornell), highly regarded private colleges and universities (like Hamilton College, Skidmore College, the University of Rochester, and Syracuse University), well-respected specialized technology institutes (like Rochester Institute of Technology and Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute), proprietary schools, Catholic institutions, and an impressive public State University of New York (SUNY) with a total of 64 two-year and four-year and graduate campuses serving almost half a million degree students.

Almost any student already living in New York State or moving to New York State can find an appropriate type of institution for college study, which will offer whatever major course of study a student can imagine. Few states can compare when it comes to what New York State has to offer.

When it comes to a good financial deal, SUNY campuses (like CUNY campuses in New York City) are a bargain. Stony Brook University, the SUNY campus on Long Island, was directed by the State Board of Regents in 1960 to become an institution that would “stand with the finest in the country.” Today, this full-fledged university, with a School of Medicine, has done just that, especially in the sciences. With tuition of just over $6,000 for New York State residents, it is an incredible bargain (out-of-state students pay almost $20,000 in tuition).

3. Weighing the Public Options

For families who need or want to take advantage of public higher education to keep costs down, the CUNY and SUNY systems offer almost anything a student could want—from a two-year technical or liberal arts degree to a four-year technical or liberal arts degree to a graduate degree in one of many fields, including medicine and law. Students can start out at a two-year CUNY or SUNY campus and transfer to a four-year CUNY or SUNY campus after that and then go on to a CUNY or SUNY graduate program, taking full advantage of one or both public education systems.

Listen to the podcast to find out about…

  • CUNY vs. SUNY
  • Dormitory living vs. commuting to campus, even in New York City
  • The pitfalls of working while a college student

Check out these higher education institutions we mention…

In New York State

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Episode 4: Colleges with Special Emphases (Part 1)

This episode is part of our series on understanding the world of college. We focus on four types of institutions with special emphases: historically black colleges and universities, single-sex colleges and universities, military service academies, and colleges offering online study.

For more details and show notes, visit http://usacollegechat.org/4.

Connect with us on Twitter @NYCollegeChat, Facebook at www.facebook.com/NYCollegeChat, or by calling our hotline at 516-900-NYCC.

This episode is part of our series on understanding the world of college. We focus on five types of institutions with special emphases: historically black colleges and universities, Hispanic-serving institutions, single-sex colleges and universities, military service academies, and colleges offering online study.

NYCollegeChat episode 4 show notes1. Historically Black Colleges and Universities

Commonly referred to as HBCUs, these colleges and universities share a mission of educating African-American students solely or primarily. The just over 100 HBCUs can be found in many states and in both rural and urban areas. They are large and small, two-year and four-year colleges, some with graduate schools. Some offer liberal arts degrees, and some offer technical degrees.

Some were founded in the late 1800s, shortly after the Civil War. They share a proud tradition of becoming the first collegiate homes of family members of freed slaves.

Some have produced great African-American leaders, like Thurgood Marshall who attended Lincoln University and Howard University School of Law. Some have put great African-American leaders from all walks of life on their payrolls as professors and administrators, like Fisk University where Harlem Renaissance figures Charles Spurgeon Johnson (its first black president), Arna Bontemps, Aaron Douglas, James Weldon Johnson, and others all worked.

2. Hispanic-Serving Institutions

Hispanic-Serving Institutions (HSIs) are colleges and universities where total Hispanic enrollment is a minimum of 25 percent of the student body.  There are almost 250 HSIs in the U.S. today, representing 15 states plus Puerto Rico.

While these institutions do not have the long history that HBCUs do, Hispanic/Latino students might be interested in attending a college or university where they can find a large community with a common cultural background.  There are 11 HSIs right here in New York State, including seven campuses of the City University of New York, with far more institutions in California and Texas, which have larger Hispanic populations.

3. Single-Sex Colleges and Universities

Colleges and universities that were started in America’s earliest days were all institutions for men. They were all single-sex institutions then.

Seven of the eight well-known Ivy League institutions served only male students when they were founded in the 1600s and 1700s: the University of Pennsylvania, Columbia, Dartmouth, Brown, Princeton, Harvard, and Yale. Among the Ivies, only Cornell, the youngest of the Ivies, was founded as a co-educational university, which took as its mission to enroll both men and women from its first day.

As time went on, most of the Ivies had a “sister” school for women: the University of Pennsylvania had a College for Women, Columbia had Barnard, Brown had Pembroke, and Harvard had Radcliffe. Of these, only Barnard remains.

While most single-sex institutions have opened their doors to the opposite sex over the years, some do remain and carry on a tradition that their graduates wholeheartedly support.

4. Military Service Academies

The five well-respected military service academies train officers for the military and provide an excellent collegiate education in selected academic fields as well: the United States Naval Academy (often referred to as Annapolis), the United States Military Academy (commonly referred to as West Point), the Air Force Academy, the United States Coast Guard Academy, and the United States Merchant Marine Academy.

Admission to the service academies is highly selective. While there is no tuition, there is a service obligation of a number of years upon graduation. In turbulent times worldwide, that service obligation is something for families to consider carefully.

5. Colleges Offering Online Study

Online study is becoming increasingly popular, with complete degrees now being offered through online study, especially at the graduate level. Even if a fully online degree is not attractive, many courses are now offered partly (“hybrid courses”) or completely online so that students do not have to attend as many or any classes on the campus.

For some students, an online course or even an online degree can be very useful and can enable students to earn credits when they cannot travel to a college campus. But online courses require a lot of self-discipline, which makes it difficult for some students to do well.

Online courses are not easier than regular courses. They require just as much work from students, probably with less guidance from the professor. Students enrolling in online courses need to know what will be expected of them and need to think hard about whether they have the motivation needed to succeed.

Listen to the podcast to find out about…

  • The value of the support students get at HBCUs and single-sex colleges
  • Find out about the 11 Hispanic-serving institutions in New York State
  • Why Barnard College? Why Wabash College? Why Paul Quinn College?
  • What tradition has to do with it
  • The pitfalls of online study, from the perspective of the professor

Check out these higher education institutions we mention…

In New York State

Outside of New York State

Connect with us through…

  • Following us on Twitter @NYCollegeChat
  • Reviewing parent materials we have available at Policy Studies in Education
  • Inquiring about our consulting services if you need individualized help
  • Following us on Facebook

Ask your questions or share your feedback by…