Episode 112: Speeding Up College Graduation

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One of the biggest practical issues in higher education today is the rising and insanely high cost of a college education–obviously. The cost of going to college is not something we talk about a lot here at USACollegeChat, partly because there are so many other people talking about it all the time. But sky-high cost is the reason behind the topic we are going to discuss in this episode: speeding up college graduation–that is, graduating in fewer than the traditional four years.

Of course, given that so many students these days are taking longer than the traditional four years to graduate–so many, in fact, that six-year graduation rates are a standard part of college data reporting–graduating in fewer than four years takes on a new meaning. When I was in college some decades ago, everyone knew one or two kids who finished in fewer than four years, and we all thought those kids were incredibly smart. But there was no institutionalized plan for speeding up graduation–at least not at my university.

1. The Early College Movement

Speeding up graduation is something that Marie and I know a bit about.   Back in 2009, Marie and I and principal Chris Aguirre co-founded an Early College high school in Brooklyn. While many Early College high schools were concentrating on getting high school students into college courses earlier while still in high school, our high school concentrated on getting high school students out of high school quicker and into college full time.

We adopted Chris’s crazy idea that all of our public school students–most of whom posted just average or below-average middle school grades–could be put on a three-year high school completion schedule by using trimesters instead of semesters during the school year. To be clear, that meant that our students could graduate in three years instead of the traditional four. Well, it was hard work, but it worked. At the end of our first three years, about 65 percent of our first class of students graduated–a full year early–and went on to college. We actually beat New York City’s four-year graduation rate. By the way, virtually all of the rest graduated the following year, on time.

2. The NYU Story

So, Marie and I know that more education can be accomplished in less time, if someone is trying hard to make that happen and if those in charge have set up the framework to make it possible. It was with those fond memories of our accelerated three-year high school schedule that I recently read about a new plan at New York University (NYU), where a year of undergraduate residential study is now about $66,000. The article by Elizabeth A. Harris in The New York Times gives us some background:

[In February], [NYU] announced a series of measures that [makes] it easier to graduate in under four years, part of an initiative aimed at diminishing the university’s enormous affordability problem.

In some ways, the school is just catching up with its students. Ellen Schall, a senior presidential fellow and the head of the university’s affordability steering committee, which is tackling college cost on a number of fronts, said that about 20 percent of N.Y.U. students already graduated ahead of schedule.

“We were surprised,” Professor Schall said. “That’s part of what convinced us we needed to make this more transparent and more available to more students.”

Students have long found ways to make it through school more quickly to save money. But there is increasing momentum to formalize the process in the face of ballooning outrage over college costs and student debt ? while N.Y.U. is expensive, many other private universities [also] cost $60,000 or more a year. (quoted from the article)

I was also surprised that 20 percent of NYU students graduated in fewer than four years. Perhaps that is really a sign of the times–a confluence of high college costs, an increase in options for earning actual college credits while in high school through Early College and dual enrollment programs, and the fact that more and more students are taking Advanced Placement high school courses and exams to try to get high enough scores to earn some college credits.

According to the article, here are some ways that NYU is going to help its students graduate quicker:

. . . [W]hile students pay for 18 credits per semester, many actually take only 16, officials said, so the university will increase the number of two-credit courses it offers.

It will also allow many students to transfer in up to eight credits from other schools, like local community colleges where they can take inexpensive classes over the summer–in the past, this has been allowed on a case-by-case basis. In addition, the university has trained advisers to help students create schedules that will get them to their three-year goal. (quoted from the article)

Okay, so I guess if students took an extra two-credit course each semester, or 18 credits instead of the typical 16, that would give them 108 credits in six semesters, or three years, leaving students perhaps another 20 credits shy of graduation. Allowing students to transfer in a certain number of credits from cheaper summer courses or from college courses taken while in high school puts these students closer to the goal line. At that point, they would need to take several heavier-than-18-credit semesters or additional courses during the summer at NYU itself–both of which would cost money. No one said it would be easy, but a substantial portion of $66,000 is a lot of money to save.

Furthermore, there is no doubt that students would need trained advisers to make this work. I imagine that there are confusing regulations galore that no student could ever figure out on his or her own at every college in the U.S. I recall how hard it was to get our kids out of high school in three years. Marie and I spent countless hours scheduling kids and checking to make sure that all of the State’s and City’s graduation requirements were being met as we went through those three years.

3. Stories from Other States

In the article, Ms. Harris widens her lens and tells these stories about public universities:

Gov. John Kasich, Republican of Ohio, pushed to make it easier for students in his state to graduate from public colleges early by allowing more credits from high school or technical programs. Gov. Scott Walker, Republican of Wisconsin, included in his budget proposal this month that schools in the University of Wisconsin system should create a three-year degree for 60 percent of its programs by the summer of 2020. Purdue University in West Lafayette, Ind., which is a state school, has also been experimenting with three-year degree options. (quoted from the article)

I think it is significant that colleges in the University of Wisconsin system–which would hopefully include the flagship campus at Madison–might create three-year degrees for 60 percent of its programs over the next few years. Of course, we will see what happens to that proposal. But whatever happens, it seems likely that other such proposals in other states might not be far behind. It is also important to notice that public universities are making these moves. As you know, public universities are often the default college solution for many students who cannot afford private colleges. And, for many such students, the cost of four years at their state’s best public institutions is, unfortunately, not affordable, either.

Here is what Ms. Harris says about private colleges:

Among elite private institutions, official [accelerated]programs remain rare, though Wesleyan University, the Connecticut liberal arts school, announced a formalized three-year track about five years ago. (quoted from the article)

Let’s take a look at the Wesleyan plan, as explained on its website:

Students who graduate in six semesters (three years of normal course loads plus summer courses) may expect to save about 20 percent of the total cost of a Wesleyan education. The three-year option is not for everyone, but for those students who are able to declare their majors early, earn credit during Wesleyan summer sessions, and take advantage of the wealth of opportunities on campus, this more economical path to graduation can be of genuine interest. . . .

For most students, the greatest challenge lies in figuring out a way to earn . . . [enough] credits and complete the particular course requirements for the major in six semesters instead of eight.  Understanding the ways of earning additional credit and accelerating the pace of one’s semester standing is crucial for developing a feasible three-year academic plan. (quoted from the website)

Okay, saving 20 percent isn’t bad–not quite a full year’s savings, but enough to make it worth pursuing.

Interested Wesleyan students will have to earn credits faster and will also have to declare their majors early, presumably in order to ensure that they can get all of the major’s requirements met. So, no waiting around till junior year and no changes once a student is headed down a given track. Clearly, accelerated graduation is not for the student who is taking his or her time exploring subject fields and majors and even trying out more than one major.

Let’s look at the ways Wesleyan says that students can earn additional credits on an accelerated three-year schedule:

Most students who graduate early use a combination of pre-matriculant credit, summer credit, and in-semester course overload. . . .

Pre-matriculant credit.  Up to 2.00 pre-matriculant credits [that is, actually credits for two courses] may be applied towards graduation.

  • Advanced Placement and International Baccalaureate test credit.  In most cases (exceptions include Biology, English, Computer Science, and Physics), it is necessary to first complete a course in an appropriate Wesleyan department to convert an AP or IB exam into Wesleyan credit.
  • College courses taken in high school.  To be eligible for Wesleyan credit, the course must have been taken with college students and taught by a college professor on a college campus.  If the course is listed for credit on the high school transcript, it may not be used for Wesleyan credit. (quoted from the website)

Of course, we all understand taking courses in the summer and taking additional courses during a regular semester. But the ways to earn credit before a student gets to Wesleyan are especially interesting and specific. Wesleyan places clear and academically rigorous restrictions on using AP or IB test credit as well as on using credits for college courses taken in high school. For example, it will not take dual enrollment course credit, and it will not take credits from the type of college courses that many Early College high schools now run. I actually couldn’t agree more with Wesleyan’s position on both of those; in fact, our Early College high school put our third-year students into courses that Wesleyan would have loved: on a college campus, with other college students, and taught by a college professor.

So, given all of these regulations, how many Wesleyan students actually graduate early? According to the article, the Wesleyan president “estimated that about 20 Wesleyan students annually graduate in three years, up from roughly three a year before [we] made the option official” (quoted from the article). That’s a big increase, of course, though not a substantial portion of the approximately 750 freshmen Wesleyan admits in a year.

4. What’s the Downside?

So, what’s the downside to an accelerated college experience other than the intense and likely difficult academic experience that we have already mentioned? People seem to believe that the biggest downside of all is that students will simply miss out on what it means to have the full college experience?including making friends (and future connections) of all kinds, exploring extracurricular activities, taking advantage of internships and study abroad programs, and the like. In fact, students on accelerated schedules do engage in all of these, but it is probable that some things will be missed in the face of the considerable academic pressure caused by taking additional credits each semester and each summer.

Is the hard academic work and some missed opportunities worth it? Is going to a more expensive college that a kid loves for three years better than going to a cheaper college that a kid is less excited about for four years? Here’s just one more thing for you to think about, parents, as you get your own teenager ready to make a college decision next month.

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Episode 81: Assignment #1–Expanding, Not Narrowing, the College Search

Listen to the episode in the player, download it here, or subscribe on Google Play MusiciTunesStitcher, or TuneIn.

This series is entitled The Search Begins and, as we have said, it is aimed directly at those of you who are parents of juniors, and it is designed to help you all navigate summer tasks related to college applications in the fall. (Of course, it never hurts parents of freshmen and sophomores to get a head start on the college admissions game. So, stick with us during these summer episodes.)

Today’s topic focuses on something that you are just about to do totally wrong. Furthermore, our advice on this topic probably runs counter to what many “experts” are telling you to do right now, which is to start narrowing your list of colleges so that your teenager can get ready to apply in the fall.

In this episode, we are going to take the position that you should do the exact opposite, which is to start expanding your teenager’s list of colleges immediately so that you all are truly ready to narrow it in the fall. While that might seem unnecessary–even wasteful, given the thousand things you are trying to do this summer–we would contend that expanding the options now could make the difference between an okay college choice for your teenager and a great college choice for your teenager when it is time to accept a college’s offer next spring. Here’s why.

Episode 81: Assignment 1--Expanding, Not Narrowing, The College Search on USA CollegeChat podcast, with free printable

1. One More Research Study

Nicholas W. Hillman, an assistant professor at the University of Wisconsin–Madison (a great public flagship university, which we discussed in Episode 27) has written a recent paper, published in the American Educational Research Journal and entitled “Geography of College Opportunity: The Case of Education Deserts.” Catherine Gewertz reported on Hillman’s paper recently in the High School & Beyond blog in Education Week (“Why College Access Depends on Your ZIP Code,” June 24, 2016).

You loyal listeners might remember that we first met Professor Hillman back in Episode 66 when we talked about his earlier report entitled Education Deserts: The Continued Significance of “Place” in the Twenty-First Century (co-authored with Taylor Weichman). One statistic that the authors quoted in that report is this: About 57 percent of incoming freshmen at public four-year colleges attend a college within 50 miles of home. Now, think about that from a freshman’s point of view. If you are a freshman standing on your four-year public college campus, more than half of your classmates live within 50 miles of where you are standing. Clearly, those students did not get outside of their “geographic comfort zone,” which is one of our most talked about and least favorite concepts here at USACollegeChat. (Remember that about 70 percent of high school graduates attend college in their home state. That’s just too many kids staying within their geographic comfort zone, in our opinion.)

This time around, Hillman maps both public and private two-year and four-year colleges and universities in 709 “commuting zones” across the U.S.–that is, in 709 bunches of mostly contiguous counties where people live and work. And, when I say “maps,” I mean that he locates the colleges and universities on a map of the U.S. and colors in the commuting zones where they are located so that anyone can see at a glance which commuting zones have a lot of colleges (five or more is the top of his scale) and which don’t have even one.

We are going to skip over private two-year colleges, inasmuch as they are the rarest of college types, and look first at public two-year colleges. Looking at Hillman’s map, we notice that there are relatively fewer public two-year colleges west of the Mississippi River until you get to the Far West and Southwest border states. Turning to public four-year colleges, we notice that there are even fewer public four-year colleges than public two-year colleges in the Plains and Rocky Mountain states. And finally, coming to private four-year colleges, we notice that the coverage is especially good east of the Mississippi–particularly in New England and the Mid-Atlantic states–and again in parts of the Far West.

So, where is the “education desert”? The maps would say, generally speaking, that it is in the Rocky Mountain and Plains states. What that means is that college students who live there are likely to have fewer nearby options than students in other commuting zones–say, those in the Northeast. Of course, even in the Northeast, you might live in a particular commuting zone that just doesn’t have many colleges. And that matters because so many kids stay close to home for college–perhaps too close.

But that’s not the worst of it. Gewertz explains:

Hillman found that zones of opportunity put specific groups at a disadvantage. Latino and African-American communities tend to have the fewest colleges, and less-selective colleges, nearby, while white and Asian communities tend to have more colleges, and more selective institutions, nearby to choose from. . . .   Hillman argues that most policy that seeks to improve college access focuses on the process of opportunity–with initiatives that aim to get more information into students’ hands, so they can make good college choices–instead of the geography of opportunity. (quoted from the article)

Well, now we have a societal problem as well as an individual student problem. As Hillman noted in his first report, the college decisions of students from working-class homes and the college decisions of students of color are most negatively affected by home-to-college distance. So, when it turns out that there are relatively fewer college options and relatively fewer selective college options in Latino and African-American communities and when we know that lots of those kids do not travel very far to attend college, for whatever reason, those students end up not having the range of college choices that they deserve.

2. Your Assignment #1

Download the Assignment #1 printable worksheet

Why are we telling you this? Because all of you should expand the college options for your teenager before you narrow them, and this is especially true if you live in an area that has few nearby colleges or few good nearby colleges. Whether you are Latino, African American, Asian, or white, those of you living in an education desert must look outside your geographic area in order to find a choice of good options for your teenager. Why should you be content with the only option in town no matter how good it is? For many of you, the chances are that it is not good enough.

But, to repeat, this advice is not just for those of you living in education deserts. This advice is for all of you who are busy making up a short list of colleges for your child to visit this summer and apply to in the fall. It simply is not time yet to be making up that short list, to be narrowing down the choices, to be closing off opportunities, and to be settling either for colleges that are nearby or for colleges that you already know about. It is unnecessarily soon–even for those of you who want to look at an Early Decision or Early Action option.

So, since it is July 1 and your teenager might have a bit of free time, we are ready to give him or her–and you–an assignment every week until September. The more you can get your teenager to do the work, the easier it will be for you; however, you will need to provide some life experience and adult judgment throughout the assignments. We do guarantee that you both will be better equipped by September 1 to start the actual college application process.

We thought hard about what your first summer assignment should be and settled on this: With your teenager, listen to our virtual nationwide college tour (Episodes 27 through 53) again?or for the first time?or skim the show notes if you prefer. By the way, these episodes do a good job of differentiating between the public and private colleges, which could well be one of the first decisions you will make when it is time to shorten your teenager’s list in September.

Together, choose at least one college in every state to put on your teenager’s list. Put those 50 on what we will call “your teenager’s long summer list of college options.” Just add them to any colleges you already have on the list.

Okay, if that’s too outlandish, try this: Choose at least one college in each of 25 states of your choice to put on your teenager’s list. Heck, that’s only half the states. You are getting off easy. Put those on your teenager’s long summer list of college options.

Still too tough? How about this: Choose at least two colleges in every geographic region of the U.S. to put on your teenager’s long summer list of college options. Remember that the Bureau of Economic Analysis (an agency of the U.S. Department of Commerce) has divided the U.S. into eight regions, with each region’s covering four to 12 states. So, that would give you 16 colleges–plus, let’s say, add two extra colleges in your home state for good measure.

But wait: Put five public flagship universities on your teenager’s long summer list of college options. Any five. You choose. This will ensure that your teenager has some great public options to consider, too. As we have said before, public flagship universities might be the hidden jewels in the college landscape.

And those of you who are longtime listeners know that this piece of advice is coming: Choose at least one college not in the U.S. to put on your teenager’s long summer list of college options. The global future is here. Join it.

Now that you have the long summer list of 20 or 30 or 40 or, better yet, 50 colleges, have your teenager read about each one on the college’s website before talking with you and recommending whether it should be kept on the list. Believe me, you can learn a lot from reading a college website. Furthermore, you can learn not only about that one college, but also about colleges in general and what to look for on the next website. It’s an education in itself.

Our virtual tour gave you a lot of the information you should consider already, but let your teenager confirm it and look further into particular things that interest him or her about the college. Make sure your teenager checks out at least these topics:

  • Enrollment, broken down by undergraduate and graduate (if any) students
  • Retention and graduation rates (search the site for “common data set” or go to College Navigator, sponsored by the National Center for Education Statistics)
  • The history of the college (always my favorite topic)
  • Academic divisions in the institution (that is, colleges or schools within a university)
  • Academic departments and majors offered
  • Study abroad options
  • Extracurricular activities (including fraternities and sororities)
  • Intercollegiate and intramural sports
  • Tuition and housing costs (of course)

Finally, make sure that your teenager writes down (or makes a spreadsheet of) the information they find on each college. Believe me, after about four colleges, it’s impossible to remember which college has which attractive and unattractive features.

Personally, I wouldn’t have your teenager start poring over admission standards just yet. I would rather he or she look at the range of great opportunities out there and perhaps get a bit motivated by what those websites offer. Your teenager needs an education about higher education first. Some of those websites are so good, in fact, that they make me want to go back to college.

And, by the way, I wouldn’t have your teenager start looking at two-year colleges yet, either. Those of you who listen to us know that we have some reservations about two-year colleges, especially for students who have just graduated from high school and are moving directly into college full time. We know that they are a great choice for saving money and for helping kids who need a bit more maturity or a bit more academic preparation, but we worry because the transfer rates to four-year colleges are scandalously low, and we worry about what opportunities that fact closes off for too many kids. Two-year colleges can easily be added to the list in September, because we are assuming that the choice of a two-year college is largely affected by geography and that students are most likely to attend the one closest to them.

So, what is the point of today’s episode? It is simply that expanding your options now–before narrowing them in the fall–is a way to let both you and your teenager consider colleges you have never thought about. That’s because there are some really interesting ones out there, including perhaps the one that is best for your teenager.

Depending where you live, here are a few public and private choices you probably aren’t thinking about (some that are very selective, and others that are not):

By the way, I really do not want to hear one more of my friends here in New York say, “Oh, she can just go to Binghamton. It’s a good school.” With apologies to Binghamton, which is a fine state university in upstate New York, I would like my friends to look around first. I would like many more colleges on their teenager’s long list. I would like many colleges on that list to be outside New York State. I would like some of them to be outside the Northeast. I would like some of them to be public and some of them to be private. Binghamton isn’t going anywhere. It will still be there in the fall.

Download the Assignment #1 printable worksheet

The Kindle ebook version of our book, How To Find the Right College, is on sale for $1.99 all summer long! Read it on your Kindle device or download the free Kindle app for any tablet or smartphone. The book is also available as a paperback workbook.

Ask your questions or share your feedback by…

  • Leaving a comment on the show notes for this episode at http://usacollegechat.org/episode81
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Episode 30: Colleges in the Southeast Region—Part II

Colleges in the Southeast Region—Part II
For show notes including links to all the colleges we mention, visit http://usacollegechat.org/30

In our last episode, we continued our virtual tour of colleges by focusing in on the six states in the Southern Southeast region: Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Florida, Georgia, and South Carolina. We looked at public universities—both the flagship state public universities and other public universities in those states. In this episode, we will continue our look into the Southern Southeast states by switching our focus to private colleges and universities.

Again, we want to make it clear that no college has asked us or paid us anything to name it. These are entirely our own choices.

Some of the colleges we will spotlight in this episode will require that your child have very good high school grades and college admission test scores to get in. Others will be a bit easier, especially if a college is looking for out-of-state students to enhance its student body’s geographic diversity.

Two general notes: First, when we talk about the colleges and universities in this episode, we are going to be talking about the main campus—that is, the one that most people associate with that institution—in those cases where an institution has more than one campus. Second, because enrollment figures are not necessarily comparable as reported by various colleges, you should use the figures we provide here just as an approximation of the actual campus enrollment, but one that is good enough to help you understand whether the student body is the right size for your child—roughly, small, medium, or really huge.

1. Private Colleges and Universities

The Southern Southeast states have a wide array of private higher education institutions—from small Bible colleges to small liberal arts colleges to larger universities. Let’s start with two private universities that most people have long considered two of the best in the South and that also enjoy a great national reputation: Emory University and Tulane University. Your child would need very good high school grades and college admission test scores to be admitted to either one.

Emory is located in Atlanta, Georgia, an impressive Southern city, which is the home of quite a few higher education institutions, both public and private. Emory is made up of nine undergraduate, graduate, and professional schools and colleges and offers undergraduates a chance to study the liberal arts and sciences, business, or nursing. It serves about 8,000 undergraduates and about 7,000 graduate and professional students. Emory has a unique program at its Oxford College, the site of the original Emory campus before it was moved to Atlanta. Oxford College now offers the first two years of a liberal arts college program on its smaller, residential campus east of Atlanta. Oxford “concentrates on the intellectual, social, and developmental needs of first- and second-year students. Oxford faculty are hired and promoted on the quality of their teaching and community service. Classes are intimate, with much discussion and interaction.” (Text taken from the website) After finishing the two years at Oxford, students can join any of the undergraduate schools on Emory’s Atlanta campus. What an interesting transition this is to life on a big urban university campus. Founded by Georgia Methodists, Emory also has an excellent graduate school of theology.

Turning to New Orleans, one of the true gems of the South, let’s look at Tulane. Tulane has five undergraduate schools—the School of Public Health and Tropical Medicine, the School of Science and Engineering, the School of Architecture, the A.B. Freeman School of Business, and the School of Liberal Arts—plus graduate and professional schools for law, medicine, and social work. Tulane enrolls about 8,000 undergraduates and about 5,000 graduate and professional students, drawn nationally and internationally. It also has something that I know Marie is going to love—the Newcomb College Institute, named for the original H. Sophie Newcomb Memorial College, which opened as the women’s college of Tulane in 1886. With its programming on women’s issues available to the whole university community, the Institute has the following mission: “To cultivate lifelong leadership among undergraduate women; to empower women by integrating teaching, research, and community engagement; to preserve, document, produce, and disseminate knowledge about women; and to honor the memory of H. Sophie Newcomb and carry forward the work of Newcomb College by providing a woman-centered experience in a co-ed institution” (text taken from the website). And did I say it was in New Orleans? No better place to be.

Let’s talk about one more private university—the University of Miami, with about 11,000 undergraduates and 5,000 graduate and professional students, drawn nationally and internationally. Located in suburban Coral Gables, the University of Miami has a name that sounds as though it might be public, but it is, in fact, private. It has grown in reputation over the past decade and a half during the presidency of Donna Shalala (who is resigning this year). Shalala was the former president of Hunter College here in New York City, the Chancellor of the University of Wisconsin–Madison (which we talked about in this Great Lakes episode), the U.S. Secretary of Health and Human Services under President Clinton, and, most importantly, my professor at Teachers College, Columbia University, in 1975. The Coral Gables Campus of the University of Miami houses two colleges and seven schools, including the Frost School of Music, one of two original schools when the University was founded in 1926. The University’s Rosenstiel School of Marine and Atmospheric Science is located in Biscayne Bay, and there is a separate Medical Campus, which includes three hospitals. Undergraduates can earn degrees in 115 bachelor’s programs.

A Look at Five Interesting Choices. As we said in Episode 28, Colleges That Change Lives is a nonprofit organization that was founded after the publication of the book Colleges That Change Lives, by Loren Pope, a retired New York Times education editor. There are now 44 colleges and universities profiled in the book and on the organization’s website. Those that are included are not necessarily famous institutions, but they all care deeply about individual students and strive to make the college into a community to support students. Many of the institutions have engaging and experiential aspects to their programs—such as internships, international and intercultural programs, and service-learning projects. Most of the institutions are smaller colleges and universities that have proved to be successful at developing students both personally and academically so that they can succeed in life after their undergraduate college years.

Five of the 44 institutions on the list are located in the Southern Southeast states. You should read about them in the book or on the website, because you will learn much more about them than I can tell you here. Here are the five:

In Alabama: Birmingham–Southern College
In Mississippi: Millsaps College
In Florida: New College of Florida and Eckerd College
In Georgia: Agnes Scott College
New College of Florida, located in Sarasota, is an interesting choice because it was founded as a private college in 1960 and then joined the public State University System as part of the University of South Florida in 1975. In 2001, it was designated as the Honors College for the state of Florida. It enrolls just 800 students from 40 states and 15 foreign countries. Agnes Scott College, located in Decatur (right outside Atlanta), is an interesting choice because it is one of the just over 40 remaining women’s colleges in the U.S. It enrolls about 900 women, drawn from 36 states and 36 foreign countries. A liberal arts college, it offers 34 majors.

Because these institutions are relatively small and thus are not particularly well known outside of their geographic region, it is my feeling that out-of-state students with a good high school record might have a decent chance of being accepted.

2. Colleges with a Special Academic Focus

In episode 4 of NYCollegeChat, we talked about colleges that have a special focus, whether it is an academic focus or a focus on certain student populations or something else. In our last episode, we spotlighted Georgia Tech, with its focus on technologically based fields.

Now let’s look at an institution with an arts focus, and that is Savannah College of Art and Design (SCAD), located in Georgia’s prettiest town—and, I would argue, the prettiest town almost anywhere. Founded relatively recently in 1978, SCAD offers more than 40 undergraduate and graduate majors. The top five majors in 2014 were animation, graphic design, illustration, fashion, and film and television (though it also offers more traditional fine arts majors, like painting, sculpture, photography, and even writing). In the general education course requirements, students take courses in the humanities and fine arts, natural sciences and mathematics, social and behavioral sciences, written and oral communication, and computer literacy. SCAD enrolls a total of about 11,000 students, drawn nationally and internationally (almost 25 percent of the student body is international). Its rolling admissions process seems quite individualized, and portfolios will be an important part of the application process for some programs.

A more unusual special focus among higher education institutions is military service. In a much earlier episode of NYCollegeChat, we talked about the U.S. military service academies: the United States Naval Academy in Maryland (often referred to as Annapolis), the United States Military Academy in New York (commonly referred to as West Point), the Air Force Academy in Colorado, the United States Coast Guard Academy in Connecticut, and the United States Merchant Marine Academy in New York.

But now let’s look at the Military College of South Carolina, The Citadel, which is a public college located in Charleston. Founded in 1842, The Citadel has about 2,300 undergraduates (about half from South Carolina), who make up the South Carolina Corps of Cadets, and about 1,000 students in The Citadel Graduate College, a civilian evening program, which also offers undergraduate studies. As described on its website, “The men and women in the Corps live and study under a classical military system that makes leadership and character development an essential part of the educational experience.” The Citadel offers 20 undergraduate majors—with mandatory leadership and ethics studies—in the schools of business, education, engineering, science and mathematics, and humanities and social sciences. About one-third of graduating cadets are commissioned into military service, mostly into the Army.

A Look at Historically Black Colleges and Universities. In Episode 4 in Series 1 of NYCollegeChat, we talked about historically black colleges and universities (commonly referred to as HBCUs), which were established with the mission of educating African-American students solely or primarily—that is, a mission of serving students who had been excluded from many other higher education institutions because of their race. You might recall that there are just over 100 HBCUs—public and private, rural and urban, large and small (even very small), two-year and four-year and graduate schools. Many were founded in the South shortly after the Civil War, and these HBCUs share a proud history of becoming the first collegiate homes for family members of freed slaves.

As we explained in our earlier episode, HBCUs today enroll students who are not black. Some people say that it has become harder for HBCUs to recruit African-American students, who are now welcome at both selective and nonselective colleges across the U.S. Nonetheless, there is still a strong sense of community among the alumni/alumnae of HBCUs and a strong sense of tradition and shared culture on HBCU campuses.

As it turns out, a large number of HBCUs are located in the six Southern Southeast states—about 35 four-year HBCUs, plus the only HBCU public system, the Southern University and A & M College System in Louisiana, with campuses in Baton Rouge, Shreveport, and New Orleans. Southern University’s main campus in Baton Rouge enrolls about 6,000 undergraduates and 1,000 graduate and professional students, with another approximately 3,000 undergraduates at each of the New Orleans and Shreveport campuses. In Baton Rouge, undergraduate students can study in 34 majors across six colleges, including the College of Sciences and Agriculture and the College of Engineering and Computer Science, as befits an A & M (agricultural and mechanical) university.

Also in Louisiana is Xavier University of Louisiana, the only Catholic HBCU, which offers about 3,000 undergraduate, graduate, and professional students a choice of 46 majors. Xavier was founded as a high school by Sister Katharine Drexel and her Sisters of the Blessed Sacrament, a religious community dedicated to the education of African Americans and Native Americans. The college program was added in 1925.

One of the most famous HBCUs is Tuskegee University, founded in Alabama in 1881 by Booker T. Washington, who was the institution’s first teacher and its head until his death in 1915. Booker T. Washington brought George Washington Carver to Tuskegee to head its agricultural studies, and it was at Tuskegee that Carver did his work on peanuts and sweet potatoes and mobile classrooms to educate farmers and more. Both Washington and Carver are buried on Tuskegee grounds. Now serving about 3,000 students in seven schools and colleges, Tuskegee is the only HBCU to award a doctoral degree in veterinary medicine (from its College of Veterinary Medicine, Nursing & Allied Health), and it is the only college campus to be designated a National Historic Site by the U.S. Congress.

We find two well-known and highly respected HBCUs in Atlanta: the all-female Spelman College and the all-male Morehouse College, both founded by Baptist leaders. Spelman is a liberal arts college that offers 27 majors to just over 2,000 undergraduate women, drawn from most states (with New York as one of the top five states sending students to Spelman). It has an enviable student to faculty ratio of 10:1, meaning that students should typically be in small classes and get close attention from faculty members. Morehouse enrolls about 2,500 undergraduate men and offers 26 majors across three liberal arts and sciences academic divisions. Students are required to complete a core curriculum, which includes four courses in the humanities—one in religion, one in philosophy, one in art history, and one in music history. Morehouse has a roster of famous alumni, ranging from Martin Luther King, Jr., to Samuel L. Jackson and Spike Lee. Both Spelman and Morehouse have especially strong senses of tradition and pride in their college communities and among their alumni/alumnae.

If you are interested in an HBCU for your child, the Southern Southeast region is a particularly fertile spot to find one. There are 30 more in this region that you can read about on your own. Just search for the White House Initiative on HBCUs for a complete list.

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In our last episode, we continued our virtual tour of colleges by focusing in on the six states in the Southern Southeast region: Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Florida, Georgia, and South Carolina. We looked at public universities—both the flagship state public universities and other public universities in those states. In this episode, we will continue our look into the Southern Southeast states by switching our focus to private colleges and universities.

A virtual tour of private colleges in the Southeast Region of the US on NYCollegeChat podcast

Again, we want to make it clear that no college has asked us or paid us anything to name it. These are entirely our own choices.

Some of the colleges we will spotlight in this episode will require that your child have very good high school grades and college admission test scores to get in. Others will be a bit easier, especially if a college is looking for out-of-state students to enhance its student body’s geographic diversity.

Two general notes: First, when we talk about the colleges and universities in this episode, we are going to be talking about the main campus—that is, the one that most people associate with that institution—in those cases where an institution has more than one campus. Second, because enrollment figures are not necessarily comparable as reported by various colleges, you should use the figures we provide here just as an approximation of the actual campus enrollment, but one that is good enough to help you understand whether the student body is the right size for your child—roughly, small, medium, or really huge.

1. Private Colleges and Universities

The Southern Southeast states have a wide array of private higher education institutions—from small Bible colleges to small liberal arts colleges to larger universities. Let’s start with two private universities that most people have long considered two of the best in the South and that also enjoy a great national reputation: Emory University and Tulane University. Your child would need very good high school grades and college admission test scores to be admitted to either one.

Emory is located in Atlanta, Georgia, an impressive Southern city, which is the home of quite a few higher education institutions, both public and private. Emory is made up of nine undergraduate, graduate, and professional schools and colleges and offers undergraduates a chance to study the liberal arts and sciences, business, or nursing. It serves about 8,000 undergraduates and about 7,000 graduate and professional students. Emory has a unique program at its Oxford College, the site of the original Emory campus before it was moved to Atlanta. Oxford College now offers the first two years of a liberal arts college program on its smaller, residential campus east of Atlanta. Oxford “concentrates on the intellectual, social, and developmental needs of first- and second-year students. Oxford faculty are hired and promoted on the quality of their teaching and community service. Classes are intimate, with much discussion and interaction.” (Text taken from the website) After finishing the two years at Oxford, students can join any of the undergraduate schools on Emory’s Atlanta campus. What an interesting transition this is to life on a big urban university campus. Founded by Georgia Methodists, Emory also has an excellent graduate school of theology.

Turning to New Orleans, one of the true gems of the South, let’s look at Tulane. Tulane has five undergraduate schools—the School of Public Health and Tropical Medicine, the School of Science and Engineering, the School of Architecture, the A.B. Freeman School of Business, and the School of Liberal Arts—plus graduate and professional schools for law, medicine, and social work. Tulane enrolls about 8,000 undergraduates and about 5,000 graduate and professional students, drawn nationally and internationally. It also has something that I know Marie is going to love—the Newcomb College Institute, named for the original H. Sophie Newcomb Memorial College, which opened as the women’s college of Tulane in 1886. With its programming on women’s issues available to the whole university community, the Institute has the following mission: “To cultivate lifelong leadership among undergraduate women; to empower women by integrating teaching, research, and community engagement; to preserve, document, produce, and disseminate knowledge about women; and to honor the memory of H. Sophie Newcomb and carry forward the work of Newcomb College by providing a woman-centered experience in a co-ed institution” (text taken from the website). And did I say it was in New Orleans? No better place to be.

Let’s talk about one more private university—the University of Miami, with about 11,000 undergraduates and 5,000 graduate and professional students, drawn nationally and internationally. Located in suburban Coral Gables, the University of Miami has a name that sounds as though it might be public, but it is, in fact, private. It has grown in reputation over the past decade and a half during the presidency of Donna Shalala (who is resigning this year). Shalala was the former president of Hunter College here in New York City, the Chancellor of the University of Wisconsin–Madison (which we talked about in this Great Lakes episode), the U.S. Secretary of Health and Human Services under President Clinton, and, most importantly, my professor at Teachers College, Columbia University, in 1975. The Coral Gables Campus of the University of Miami houses two colleges and seven schools, including the Frost School of Music, one of two original schools when the University was founded in 1926. The University’s Rosenstiel School of Marine and Atmospheric Science is located in Biscayne Bay, and there is a separate Medical Campus, which includes three hospitals. Undergraduates can earn degrees in 115 bachelor’s programs.

A Look at Five Interesting Choices. As we said in Episode 28, Colleges That Change Lives is a nonprofit organization that was founded after the publication of the book Colleges That Change Lives, by Loren Pope, a retired New York Times education editor. There are now 44 colleges and universities profiled in the book and on the organization’s website. Those that are included are not necessarily famous institutions, but they all care deeply about individual students and strive to make the college into a community to support students. Many of the institutions have engaging and experiential aspects to their programs—such as internships, international and intercultural programs, and service-learning projects.   Most of the institutions are smaller colleges and universities that have proved to be successful at developing students both personally and academically so that they can succeed in life after their undergraduate college years.

Five of the 44 institutions on the list are located in the Southern Southeast states. You should read about them in the book or on the website, because you will learn much more about them than I can tell you here. Here are the five:

New College of Florida, located in Sarasota, is an interesting choice because it was founded as a private college in 1960 and then joined the public State University System as part of the University of South Florida in 1975. In 2001, it was designated as the Honors College for the state of Florida. It enrolls just 800 students from 40 states and 15 foreign countries. Agnes Scott College, located in Decatur (right outside Atlanta), is an interesting choice because it is one of the just over 40 remaining women’s colleges in the U.S. It enrolls about 900 women, drawn from 36 states and 36 foreign countries. A liberal arts college, it offers 34 majors.

Because these institutions are relatively small and thus are not particularly well known outside of their geographic region, it is my feeling that out-of-state students with a good high school record might have a decent chance of being accepted.

2. Colleges with a Special Academic Focus

In episode 4 of NYCollegeChat, we talked about colleges that have a special focus, whether it is an academic focus or a focus on certain student populations or something else. In our last episode, we spotlighted Georgia Tech, with its focus on technologically based fields.

Now let’s look at an institution with an arts focus, and that is Savannah College of Art and Design (SCAD), located in Georgia’s prettiest town—and, I would argue, the prettiest town almost anywhere. Founded relatively recently in 1978, SCAD offers more than 40 undergraduate and graduate majors. The top five majors in 2014 were animation, graphic design, illustration, fashion, and film and television (though it also offers more traditional fine arts majors, like painting, sculpture, photography, and even writing). In the general education course requirements, students take courses in the humanities and fine arts, natural sciences and mathematics, social and behavioral sciences, written and oral communication, and computer literacy. SCAD enrolls a total of about 11,000 students, drawn nationally and internationally (almost 25 percent of the student body is international). Its rolling admissions process seems quite individualized, and portfolios will be an important part of the application process for some programs.

A more unusual special focus among higher education institutions is military service. In a much earlier episode of NYCollegeChat, we talked about the U.S. military service academies: the United States Naval Academy in Maryland (often referred to as Annapolis), the United States Military Academy in New York (commonly referred to as West Point), the Air Force Academy in Colorado, the United States Coast Guard Academy in Connecticut, and the United States Merchant Marine Academy in New York.

But now let’s look at the Military College of South Carolina, The Citadel, which is a public college located in Charleston. Founded in 1842, The Citadel has about 2,300 undergraduates (about half from South Carolina), who make up the South Carolina Corps of Cadets, and about 1,000 students in The Citadel Graduate College, a civilian evening program, which also offers undergraduate studies. As described on its website, “The men and women in the Corps live and study under a classical military system that makes leadership and character development an essential part of the educational experience.” The Citadel offers 20 undergraduate majors—with mandatory leadership and ethics studies—in the schools of business, education, engineering, science and mathematics, and humanities and social sciences. About one-third of graduating cadets are commissioned into military service, mostly into the Army.

3. Historically Black Colleges and Universities

In Episode 4 in Series 1 of NYCollegeChat, we talked about historically black colleges and universities (commonly referred to as HBCUs), which were established with the mission of educating African-American students solely or primarily—that is, a mission of serving students who had been excluded from many other higher education institutions because of their race. You might recall that there are just over 100 HBCUs—public and private, rural and urban, large and small (even very small), two-year and four-year and graduate schools. Many were founded in the South shortly after the Civil War, and these HBCUs share a proud history of becoming the first collegiate homes for family members of freed slaves.

As we explained in our earlier episode, HBCUs today enroll students who are not black. Some people say that it has become harder for HBCUs to recruit African-American students, who are now welcome at both selective and nonselective colleges across the U.S. Nonetheless, there is still a strong sense of community among the alumni/alumnae of HBCUs and a strong sense of tradition and shared culture on HBCU campuses.

As it turns out, a large number of HBCUs are located in the six Southern Southeast states—about 35 four-year HBCUs, plus the only HBCU public system, the Southern University and A & M College System in Louisiana, with campuses in Baton Rouge, Shreveport, and New Orleans. Southern University’s main campus in Baton Rouge enrolls about 6,000 undergraduates and 1,000 graduate and professional students, with another approximately 3,000 undergraduates at each of the New Orleans and Shreveport campuses. In Baton Rouge, undergraduate students can study in 34 majors across six colleges, including the College of Sciences and Agriculture and the College of Engineering and Computer Science, as befits an A & M (agricultural and mechanical) university.

Also in Louisiana is Xavier University of Louisiana, the only Catholic HBCU, which offers about 3,000 undergraduate, graduate, and professional students a choice of 46 majors. Xavier was founded as a high school by Sister Katharine Drexel and her Sisters of the Blessed Sacrament, a religious community dedicated to the education of African Americans and Native Americans. The college program was added in 1925.

One of the most famous HBCUs is Tuskegee University, founded in Alabama in 1881 by Booker T. Washington, who was the institution’s first teacher and its head until his death in 1915. Booker T. Washington brought George Washington Carver to Tuskegee to head its agricultural studies, and it was at Tuskegee that Carver did his work on peanuts and sweet potatoes and mobile classrooms to educate farmers and more. Both Washington and Carver are buried on Tuskegee grounds. Now serving about 3,000 students in seven schools and colleges, Tuskegee is the only HBCU to award a doctoral degree in veterinary medicine (from its College of Veterinary Medicine, Nursing & Allied Health), and it is the only college campus to be designated a National Historic Site by the U.S. Congress.

We find two well-known and highly respected HBCUs in Atlanta: the all-female Spelman College and the all-male Morehouse College, both founded by Baptist leaders. Spelman is a liberal arts college that offers 27 majors to just over 2,000 undergraduate women, drawn from most states (with New York as one of the top five states sending students to Spelman). It has an enviable student to faculty ratio of 10:1, meaning that students should typically be in small classes and get close attention from faculty members. Morehouse enrolls about 2,500 undergraduate men and offers 26 majors across three liberal arts and sciences academic divisions. Students are required to complete a core curriculum, which includes four courses in the humanities—one in religion, one in philosophy, one in art history, and one in music history. Morehouse has a roster of famous alumni, ranging from Martin Luther King, Jr., to Samuel L. Jackson and Spike Lee. Both Spelman and Morehouse have especially strong senses of tradition and pride in their college communities and among their alumni/alumnae.

If you are interested in an HBCU for your child, the Southern Southeast region is a particularly fertile spot to find one. There are 30 more in this region that you can read about on your own. Just search for the White House Initiative on HBCUs for a complete list.

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Episode 27: Colleges in the Great Lakes Region—Part I

We are continuing our series on looking at colleges outside your comfort zone by taking a virtual tour of public colleges and universities in the Great Lakes region. Complete show notes for today’s episode, including links to all of the colleges mentioned, can be found at http://usacollegechat.org/27.

In our last episode, we said that we were going to take you on a virtual tour of colleges across the U.S. to try to stretch your thinking about colleges that might be attractive to your child. As we start our tour this week, we are going to spotlight public colleges. We are going to talk about four-year colleges only, reasoning that students headed to a public two-year college are highly likely to go to one in their home state and are not, therefore, looking to leave their own geographic region right away. If your child is headed to a public two-year college, just save this information until it might be time for your child to transfer to a four-year college later on.

Again, we want to make it clear that there is no statistical basis for the colleges we are going to name in each region. While we do not promise to name a lot of great colleges in every state, we do promise to name a lot of great colleges.

And as we said last week, if you have a college you would like us to talk about on the air, please email us or call us and tell us what it is and why it is great, and we will certainly consider it. Let us also say again that no college has asked us to name it and that no college has paid us anything to name it. These are entirely our own choices.

To be sure, some of the colleges we will name will require that your child have very good high school grades and college admissions test scores to get in. Others will be a bit easier, especially if a college is looking for out-of-state students to enhance its student body’s geographic diversity. But, because each student’s profile of grades and test scores and extracurricular activities and outside-of-school experiences is his or her own unique package, it will be up to you to look at your child’s high school record to see which colleges might be appropriate.

One general note about the location of college campuses: It used to be that most colleges had a single campus. Then, large public universities looked to serve more and more students as the college-going rate increased in the last century. We started to see branch campuses of these large public universities—a couple and then five or seven or more—as supply rose to meet demand. Now, private universities and colleges have started to open more locations, too—probably in an effort to attract students who do not want to commute to or live on the main campus. All this opening of branches and locations has made talking about colleges a bit complicated. When we talk about the colleges and universities in this episode, we are going to be talking about the main campus—that is, the one that most people associate with that institution.

And one general note about enrollment figures: While we tried hard to pull enrollment figures from college websites in order to give you an idea of how large or how small our spotlighted colleges are, we believe that the figures are not necessarily comparable from college to college. For example, sometimes colleges include part-time students, sometimes they don’t, and sometimes you can’t tell whether they do or don’t. So, use the enrollment figures we are giving as just an approximation of the actual campus enrollment. These figures are certainly good enough to help you understand whether the student body is the right size for your child. In other words, it doesn’t really matter if a university has 19,000 undergraduate students or 25,000 undergraduate students; it is still a huge school.

1. The Great Lakes Region

The Bureau of Economic Analysis (an agency of the U.S. Department of Commerce) has divided the U.S. into eight regions, with each region’s covering four to 12 states. So let’s get started with the five states that make up the Bureau’s Great Lakes region: Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Ohio, and Wisconsin.

For those of you who are listening in our home state of New York, I am guessing that the Great Lakes region sounds far away, except perhaps for Ohio, which we can think of as right across New Jersey and/or Pennsylvania from us. For those of you who are listening in the South or Southwest or on the West Coast, I am guessing that all these states seem far removed from where you thought you might send your child. But there are a lot of great colleges and universities in the Great Lakes region, so let’s begin.

2. Flagship Public State Universities

One notable category of higher education institutions in these five states is the flagship public state university. Each of the Great Lakes states has one, though some are better known nationally than others. They are all good schools, and I would argue that at least a couple of them are, in fact, great schools. While these universities have smaller branch campuses in other locations in their states, it is the main location—that is, the flagship of each state’s public system—that we will talk about here because that is the campus that is best known and likely most respected both in the state and outside the state.

If you want to apply to one of these campuses from out of state, your child will need good to excellent high school grades and good to excellent college admission test scores, with some being a bit harder to get into than others. Just remember, the best and the brightest high school students who live in these states really want to go to their flagship state university. Why? Because these schools are relatively inexpensive (because they are public), academically respectable, well regarded across the state and across the country, super-competitive in sports arenas, chocked full of student clubs and activities, within driving distance of home, and a social hub for lots of their high school classmates. They are the place to be, if you live in that state. That attitude might be hard for those of us who live in New York State to understand, because we do not have the same kind of famous flagship campus that draws a large percentage of our state’s best high school graduates. The State University of New York (SUNY) operates more like individual colleges located around the state rather than one main campus with branches of it around the state, as in the Great Lakes region. SUNY does not have one big flagship campus that the majority of New York high school students are dying to go to.

So, what are these flagship campuses in the Great Lakes region? They are the University of Michigan at Ann Arbor, University of Wisconsin–Madison, Indiana University Bloomington, University of Illinois at Urbana–Champaign, and The Ohio State University in Columbus. While these universities are located in different kinds of settings—from medium-sized college towns to state capitals (and let me tell you that Madison has one of the prettiest state capitol buildings you are ever going to find)—and while some have colder weather than others (like Michigan and Wisconsin—believe me, I know), they also have a lot in common.

For example, they are huge. The average number of undergraduates enrolled at the flagship campuses in Michigan, Wisconsin, Indiana, and Illinois is almost 30,000, with a total undergraduate, graduate, and professional student enrollment averaging almost 45,000, Ohio State is bigger still, with about 45,000 undergraduates and a total enrollment of about 58,000 students. While some of these campuses brag about the relatively small class size of many of their classes and the kind of personalized attention they give their students, you can be sure that a shy student could easily get lost in the shuffle of a very large campus and in what will surely be some large lecture halls, with lots of students trying to get the professors’ attention.

Within each flagship university, there are from 11 to 19 different undergraduate, graduate, and professional schools and colleges—arts and sciences, education, engineering, business, agriculture and life sciences, nursing, law, medicine, veterinary medicine, architecture, and more—including, at Indiana, the famous Jacobs School of Music. These universities offer from about 135 to almost 250 undergraduate majors—truly something for every student, almost no matter what the student is interested in.

As befits any huge university, each one has hundreds and hundreds of student clubs and organizations and more than 20 men’s and women’s varsity sports teams (plus club sports and intramurals). They are all part of the Big Ten athletic conference, so you can be sure that students go to football and basketball games and root for the home team. This is all part of the college life and proud traditions at these universities.

Each of these five flagship universities is well enough known and highly enough regarded to attract students from virtually every state in the U.S. and from typically more than 100 foreign countries. Interestingly enough, New York and California are among the top states outside the Great Lakes region that send students to these schools every year, so they aren’t secrets—at least not to parents and guidance counselors who are well versed in college options outside their home states.

All of these public universities would cost an out-of-state student more than a public university in his or her own state, but would still cost less than most private colleges—that is, before any financial aid package is figured in. More important, they are better academically and more widely recognized than many private colleges in the U.S. There is no prestige in attending a private college that is not as good as a great public university. So this might be the time to consider one.

3. Other Public State Universities

In these five Great Lakes states, there are also other public universities—not branches of the flagship campus, but other universities in their own right, some of which are also quite well known.

One of the best-known of these—and perhaps the best in many respects—is Michigan State University, located in East Lansing, just outside Michigan’s capital. It is actually larger than most of the flagship campuses we just discussed—with about 39,000 undergraduates and 11,000 graduate and professional students. Like the flagship campuses, it draws students from all states and more than 100 foreign countries, has more than 15 colleges, offers about 160 undergraduate majors, and is a member of the Big Ten. The state of Michigan is one clear example of a state where the two largest public universities—the University of Michigan and Michigan State University—are virtually equal in their fame and appeal.

Another example of a state where the two largest public universities are virtually equal in their fame and appeal is the state of Indiana, which has both Indiana University Bloomington and the Purdue University public system, with its main campus in West Lafayette. Note that Purdue is a public university, even though the name does not sound like it (it was named after a very large donor, John Purdue, in 1869). Another member of the Big Ten, Purdue enrolls about 30,000 undergraduates at the main campus (plus about 9,000 graduate and professional students)—maybe just a bit smaller than IU Bloomington. Given Purdue’s good national reputation, it draws students globally; barely over half of Purdue undergraduates are actually Indiana residents. Purdue offers 10 undergraduate and graduate schools, with over 100 majors for undergraduates; it has a very highly ranked College of Engineering and some highly ranked business majors.

When we attended the National Association for College Admission Counseling’s college fair in New York City last weekend, we had a nice chat with Amanda Wulle, the Assistant Director of Admissions (NYC Regional Representative) at Purdue, who did a quick audio pitch for her alma mater for NYCollegeChat. Be sure to listen to it in our recorded episode.

Several smaller (but still quite large, by anybody’s standard) public choices are Wayne State University in the city of Detroit, Western Michigan University in Kalamazoo, and Kent State University in Ohio (with its main campus in Kent). Each of these public universities has about 20,000 undergraduate students and from 5,000 to 10,000 graduate and professional students at its main campus. They offer from 10 to 13 undergraduate, graduate, and professional schools and colleges, including a well-known medical school at Wayne State and a College of Aviation at Western Michigan (which you just don’t see every day). Interestingly, the vast majority of students at each university come from within its home state. That could mean that an application from a student in a far away state would be especially attractive. And I couldn’t mention Western Michigan without a fond word for one of its longtime, now retired, education professors and an amazing colleague, Daniel Stufflebeam. Dan was one of the great innovators in the field of educational evaluation for decades (actually since his groundbreaking work at Ohio State).

As we said earlier, all of these public universities (and there are even more in these states than those we mentioned here) would cost an out-of-state student more than a public university in his or her own state, but less than most private colleges. So, consider looking at public universities beyond just the flagship university.

Listen to the podcast to find out about…

How students get around the campus and the town/city
How “livable” the college town/city is and how much of a plus that is for students
How ethnically and racially diverse these campuses are and how that might affect your child’s admission chances

Check out the higher education institutions and programs we mention by visiting our show notes for today’s episode at http://usacollegechat.org/27

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We are continuing our series on looking at colleges outside your comfort zone by taking a virtual tour of public colleges and universities in the Great Lakes region.

Colleges in the Great Lakes Region—Part I on NYCollegeChat podcast

In our last episode, we said that we were going to take you on a virtual tour of colleges across the U.S. to try to stretch your thinking about colleges that might be attractive to your child. As we start our tour this week, we are going to spotlight public colleges. We are going to talk about four-year colleges only, reasoning that students headed to a public two-year college are highly likely to go to one in their home state and are not, therefore, looking to leave their own geographic region right away. If your child is headed to a public two-year college, just save this information until it might be time for your child to transfer to a four-year college later on.

Again, we want to make it clear that there is no statistical basis for the colleges we are going to name in each region. While we do not promise to name a lot of great colleges in every state, we do promise to name a lot of great colleges.

And as we said last week, if you have a college you would like us to talk about on the air, please email us or call us and tell us what it is and why it is great, and we will certainly consider it. Let us also say again that no college has asked us to name it and that no college has paid us anything to name it. These are entirely our own choices.

To be sure, some of the colleges we will name will require that your child have very good high school grades and college admissions test scores to get in. Others will be a bit easier, especially if a college is looking for out-of-state students to enhance its student body’s geographic diversity. But, because each student’s profile of grades and test scores and extracurricular activities and outside-of-school experiences is his or her own unique package, it will be up to you to look at your child’s high school record to see which colleges might be appropriate.

One general note about the location of college campuses: It used to be that most colleges had a single campus. Then, large public universities looked to serve more and more students as the college-going rate increased in the last century. We started to see branch campuses of these large public universities—a couple and then five or seven or more—as supply rose to meet demand. Now, private universities and colleges have started to open more locations, too—probably in an effort to attract students who do not want to commute to or live on the main campus. All this opening of branches and locations has made talking about colleges a bit complicated. When we talk about the colleges and universities in this episode, we are going to be talking about the main campus—that is, the one that most people associate with that institution.

And one general note about enrollment figures: While we tried hard to pull enrollment figures from college websites in order to give you an idea of how large or how small our spotlighted colleges are, we believe that the figures are not necessarily comparable from college to college. For example, sometimes colleges include part-time students, sometimes they don’t, and sometimes you can’t tell whether they do or don’t. So, use the enrollment figures we are giving as just an approximation of the actual campus enrollment. These figures are certainly good enough to help you understand whether the student body is the right size for your child. In other words, it doesn’t really matter if a university has 19,000 undergraduate students or 25,000 undergraduate students; it is still a huge school.

1. The Great Lakes Region

The Bureau of Economic Analysis (an agency of the U.S. Department of Commerce) has divided the U.S. into eight regions, with each region’s covering four to 12 states. So let’s get started with the five states that make up the Bureau’s Great Lakes region: Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Ohio, and Wisconsin.

For those of you who are listening in our home state of New York, I am guessing that the Great Lakes region sounds far away, except perhaps for Ohio, which we can think of as right across New Jersey and/or Pennsylvania from us. For those of you who are listening in the South or Southwest or on the West Coast, I am guessing that all these states seem far removed from where you thought you might send your child. But there are a lot of great colleges and universities in the Great Lakes region, so let’s begin.

2. Flagship Public State Universities

One notable category of higher education institutions in these five states is the flagship public state university. Each of the Great Lakes states has one, though some are better known nationally than others. They are all good schools, and I would argue that at least a couple of them are, in fact, great schools. While these universities have smaller branch campuses in other locations in their states, it is the main location—that is, the flagship of each state’s public system—that we will talk about here because that is the campus that is best known and likely most respected both in the state and outside the state.

If you want to apply to one of these campuses from out of state, your child will need good to excellent high school grades and good to excellent college admission test scores, with some being a bit harder to get into than others. Just remember, the best and the brightest high school students who live in these states really want to go to their flagship state university. Why? Because these schools are relatively inexpensive (because they are public), academically respectable, well regarded across the state and across the country, super-competitive in sports arenas, chocked full of student clubs and activities, within driving distance of home, and a social hub for lots of their high school classmates. They are the place to be, if you live in that state. That attitude might be hard for those of us who live in New York State to understand, because we do not have the same kind of famous flagship campus that draws a large percentage of our state’s best high school graduates. The State University of New York (SUNY) operates more like individual colleges located around the state rather than one main campus with branches of it around the state, as in the Great Lakes region. SUNY does not have one big flagship campus that the majority of New York high school students are dying to go to.

So, what are these flagship campuses in the Great Lakes region? They are the University of Michigan at Ann ArborUniversity of Wisconsin–Madison, Indiana University Bloomington, University of Illinois at Urbana–Champaign, and The Ohio State University in Columbus. While these universities are located in different kinds of settings—from medium-sized college towns to state capitals (and let me tell you that Madison has one of the prettiest state capitol buildings you are ever going to find)—and while some have colder weather than others (like Michigan and Wisconsin—believe me, I know), they also have a lot in common.

For example, they are huge. The average number of undergraduates enrolled at the flagship campuses in Michigan, Wisconsin, Indiana, and Illinois is almost 30,000, with a total undergraduate, graduate, and professional student enrollment averaging almost 45,000, Ohio State is bigger still, with about 45,000 undergraduates and a total enrollment of about 58,000 students. While some of these campuses brag about the relatively small class size of many of their classes and the kind of personalized attention they give their students, you can be sure that a shy student could easily get lost in the shuffle of a very large campus and in what will surely be some large lecture halls, with lots of students trying to get the professors’ attention.

Within each flagship university, there are from 11 to 19 different undergraduate, graduate, and professional schools and colleges—arts and sciences, education, engineering, business, agriculture and life sciences, nursing, law, medicine, veterinary medicine, architecture, and more—including, at Indiana, the famous Jacobs School of Music. These universities offer from about 135 to almost 250 undergraduate majors—truly something for every student, almost no matter what the student is interested in.

As befits any huge university, each one has hundreds and hundreds of student clubs and organizations and more than 20 men’s and women’s varsity sports teams (plus club sports and intramurals). They are all part of the Big Ten athletic conference, so you can be sure that students go to football and basketball games and root for the home team. This is all part of the college life and proud traditions at these universities.

Each of these five flagship universities is well enough known and highly enough regarded to attract students from virtually every state in the U.S. and from typically more than 100 foreign countries. Interestingly enough, New York and California are among the top states outside the Great Lakes region that send students to these schools every year, so they aren’t secrets—at least not to parents and guidance counselors who are well versed in college options outside their home states.

All of these public universities would cost an out-of-state student more than a public university in his or her own state, but would still cost less than most private colleges—that is, before any financial aid package is figured in. More important, they are better academically and more widely recognized than many private colleges in the U.S. There is no prestige in attending a private college that is not as good as a great public university. So this might be the time to consider one.

3. Other Public State Universities

In these five Great Lakes states, there are also other public universities—not branches of the flagship campus, but other universities in their own right, some of which are also quite well known.

One of the best-known of these—and perhaps the best in many respects—is Michigan State University, located in East Lansing, just outside Michigan’s capital. It is actually larger than most of the flagship campuses we just discussed—with about 39,000 undergraduates and 11,000 graduate and professional students. Like the flagship campuses, it draws students from all states and more than 100 foreign countries, has more than 15 colleges, offers about 160 undergraduate majors, and is a member of the Big Ten. The state of Michigan is one clear example of a state where the two largest public universities—the University of Michigan and Michigan State University—are virtually equal in their fame and appeal.

Another example of a state where the two largest public universities are virtually equal in their fame and appeal is the state of Indiana, which has both Indiana University Bloomington and the Purdue University public system, with its main campus in West Lafayette. Note that Purdue is a public university, even though the name does not sound like it (it was named after a very large donor, John Purdue, in 1869). Another member of the Big Ten, Purdue enrolls about 30,000 undergraduates at the main campus (plus about 9,000 graduate and professional students)—maybe just a bit smaller than IU Bloomington. Given Purdue’s good national reputation, it draws students globally; barely over half of Purdue undergraduates are actually Indiana residents. Purdue offers 10 undergraduate and graduate schools, with over 100 majors for undergraduates; it has a very highly ranked College of Engineering and some highly ranked business majors.

When we attended the National Association for College Admission Counseling’s college fair in New York City last weekend, we had a nice chat with Amanda Wulle, the Assistant Director of Admissions (NYC Regional Representative) at Purdue, who did a quick audio pitch for her alma mater for NYCollegeChat. Be sure to listen to it in our recorded episode.

Several smaller (but still quite large, by anybody’s standard) public choices are Wayne State University in the city of Detroit, Western Michigan University in Kalamazoo, and Kent State University in Ohio (with its main campus in Kent). Each of these public universities has about 20,000 undergraduate students and from 5,000 to 10,000 graduate and professional students at its main campus. They offer from 10 to 13 undergraduate, graduate, and professional schools and colleges, including a well-known medical school at Wayne State and a College of Aviation at Western Michigan (which you just don’t see every day). Interestingly, the vast majority of students at each university come from within its home state. That could mean that an application from a student in a far away state would be especially attractive. And I couldn’t mention Western Michigan without a fond word for one of its longtime, now retired, education professors and an amazing colleague, Daniel Stufflebeam. Dan was one of the great innovators in the field of educational evaluation for decades (actually since his groundbreaking work at Ohio State).

As we said earlier, all of these public universities (and there are even more in these states than those we mentioned here) would cost an out-of-state student more than a public university in his or her own state, but less than most private colleges. So, consider looking at public universities beyond just the flagship university.

Listen to the podcast to find out about…

  • How students get around the campus and the town/city
  • How “livable” the college town/city is and how much of a plus that is for students
  • How ethnically and racially diverse these campuses are and how that might affect your child’s admission chances

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Episode 1: Public, Private, and Proprietary Colleges

This episode is part of our series on understanding the world of college. In this episode, we talk about the differences between public, private, and proprietary colleges.

For detailed show notes including links to all the colleges mentioned in this episode, visit http://usacollegechat.org/1.

NYCollege Chat is a weekly podcast for parents and high school students about the world of college, brought to you by Policy Studies in Education.

Connect with us! Follow us on Facebook or Twitter as NYCollegeChat. Contact us with questions at 516-900-NYCC.

Welcome to the first episode of NYCollegeChat, a weekly podcast for New York State parents and high school students about the world of college. NYCollegeChat is a program of Policy Studies in Education and is hosted by Regina Paul and Marie Segares.

This episode is part of our series on understanding the world of college and is focused on the differences among public, private, and proprietary colleges.

NYCollegeChat Public, Private, and Proprietary CollegesPublic College Funding

Public colleges are paid for, at least in part, by state and local governments—that means, by your taxes—primarily for the benefit of their own residents.

States fund public colleges. New York has the State University of New York, with its 64 two-year and four-year campuses. Some states have more than one system of colleges, like California’s University of California campuses, California State University campuses, and California Community Colleges campuses.

Some local governments, like big cities and counties, can afford to help fund their own public higher education—like the City University of New York or Dallas County Community College District. Even in those cases, however, the state governments provide part of the funding, at least in some cases.

But even with public colleges that are supported by tax dollars, student tuition is a major source of revenue.

2. Public College Enrollment and Tuition

Public colleges usually have a large student enrollment—larger than most, but not all, private colleges.

Public colleges have lower tuition than private colleges, so the cost of attending a public college is lower than attending a private college, unless a student has been awarded a generous scholarship by a private college. Of course, students can be awarded scholarships by public colleges, too, making the cost of attending a public college even more attractive.

3. Attitudes About Private Colleges

Private colleges, which are funded by the tuition of its students and by donations from its alumni and others, are often seen as being more prestigious or as being “better” colleges than public colleges. The fact is the some private colleges are indeed better than some public colleges; another fact is that some public colleges are better than some private colleges.

What is “better”? Students are smarter. Professors are better educated. Classes are smaller. Extracurricular activities are more available. Campus facilities are more impressive. Alumni are more successful. The fact is that some public colleges beat some private colleges in all these areas, so it pays to know as much as you can about what a variety of colleges have to offer your child.

4. Proprietary Colleges

Public and private colleges are nonprofit organizations whose first responsibility is to their students. Proprietary colleges are profit-making organizations whose first responsibility is to its owners and stockholders.

That does not mean that proprietary colleges provide a bad education; in fact, some provide a very good education.

You should have a close look at any proprietary colleges your child is interested in. Check out their majors, their courses, their faculty, their costs, and their record of success.

Listen to the podcast to find out about…

  • Great public colleges you might consider
  • Public and private college names that are misleading
  • The special public–private partnership that is Cornell University (Ithaca, New York), made up of 3 public colleges and 4 private colleges

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